[00:00] Christine Spadafor: You know your value, you know how smart you are, you know, your worth. There is an employer out there who will recognize that and pay you appropriately for it.

[00:15] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Welcome to another episode of Success Through Failure. This is your host, Jim Harshaw, Jr. and today I bring you Christine Spadafor. Christine is a lecturer on strategic leadership at Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth, and she’s a lecturer at the Harvard business school, medical school, school of public health and Harvard Kennedy school. She’s also an experienced management consultant. She’s worked extensively as a board of directors advisor to fortune 500 C-suite executives. She’s on a number of boards of major companies and corporations, including companies on the New York stock exchange all across the country, as well as nonprofits.

[00:56] Her experience is far too great to list everything here. But today in this episode, we get into her experience with success and failure as a CEO, uh, as a woman. In the male dominated corporate world, especially when she was earlier in her career, she’s got a phenomenal number of stories that she shares with us in specific practical, actionable takeaways, especially stuff around mindset, some really great stuff here from Christine.

[01:25] If you enjoy this episode, please give it a share. Tell your friends, tell your family, tell your neighbors, send them a text message. Tell ’em to check out the latest episode of success through failure. That’s how this thing grows. Also, you can follow me on social media, Twitter @jimharshaw, Instagram @jimharshawjr.

[01:43] Take a screenshot of this episode, tag me, share it, and I’ll be sure to recognize you and love to create a conversation with you over there. Love getting feedback from you, the listener. All right, let’s get into it. My interview with Christine Spata four. What is the Great Resignation?

[01:59] Christine Spadafor: There are lots of different lenses on what the great resignation means in general, it’s millions of people leaving the workforce for a variety of reasons.

[02:12] One is employees feeling as though their employers do not have their overall wellbeing as a priority. When I say wellbeing, I mean, financial, physical, mental health, and social. Looking at the employee holistically, as opposed to the guy in the call center. That’s one reason. Another reason particular to women is that with COVID and when schools were closed and the cost of childcare, many women have been forced to leave the workforce for care, taking issues, whether it’s a parent, a child, a spouse, and so it’s really exposed our broken childcare system.

[02:58] 1.1 million women continue to be out of the workforce for a variety of reasons. For the most part, these are women of color women with lower wage capabilities. The men have recovered, but the women are still being left out of the workforce. Those are two major reasons why people have chosen to step away.

[03:22] One way I think about it is particularly for millennials and gen Z and good for them because they’re really working to change the complexion of the future of work. They don’t want to live to work. They want to work to live. So it’s a switch to more balance in

[03:41] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: life. You wrote a LinkedIn post that went absolutely bonkers, went viral and for the listener, I’ll have a link to that post in the action plan.

[03:51] So you can go to JimHarshawJr.com/ACTION. We’ll have a link directly to the post and you can read it for yourself. And it’s linked to a, a really good New York times video. And it’s all about the great resignation. Tell us about that post. And why do you think it caught so much traction globally?

[04:07] Christine Spadafor: This is a post I wrote about one of the number of mistakes that I’ve made over the years.

[04:13] And that is that I stayed in jobs too long, where I knew it was a mismatch. And the interesting thing about the post was, as you said, this huge response, nearly 800,000 people from around the world in hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of comments from people around the world. Talking about their struggle, basically working in a toxic workplace.

[04:40] That was the overall response I got. And interestingly, what was a surprise is very, very few people talked about pay. They talked about staying in jobs too long, where particularly people of color expressed that they were discriminated against people talked about, uh, being passed over for promotions repeatedly, not feeling heard, not feeling included, feeling undervalued.

[05:08] And so again, it goes back to this holistic piece and looking at the employee as a person, not someone just filling a job. And that’s what I really took away from these hundreds of comments that were people were just in angst in some places. About still believing they needed to stay in a toxic workplace for a variety of reasons.

[05:31] But many people saying I should have left 20 years ago. Many people saying I’m planning to leave now. Thank you for the push I needed. I’m going to go start my own business. Many people in the great resignation back to your initial question. Why are some people leaving? They wanna go do their own thing.

[05:47] They want to be their own boss. So that really hit a chord. I really struck a nerve by explaining my mistake of staying too long and then getting basically a worldwide response of people who felt the same way. In

[06:02] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: that post you share that maybe it’s okay to quit. But I thought like, like in the society that we live in says that we should persevere no matter what, no one likes a quitter, but you say that adopting that mindset is a big mistake.

[06:16] Why?

[06:16] Christine Spadafor: For many of the people that responded, it was about their mental health. People were feeling less confident. People were feeling bullied. People needed a change of venue. Now that’s easier said than done. It depends on your risk tolerance. If you are the sole breadwinner, just picking up and quitting.

[06:35] If you’ve got people, depending on you may not be so easy. If you come from a different economic place where there will still be sufficient funds to manage the household, then the decision may be easier. So it’s very much. Dependent on risk tolerance and in large part two, what can someone afford to do?

[06:59] And that runs an entire spectrum from people who can leave easily and continue to pay the rent to perhaps a single mom. Who’s got kids to raise sort of picking up and leaving without having another position necessarily may not be so simple, even though. The mom may want to leave. Now the good news in this is that there is a tremendous war for talent right now.

[07:22] So my message to your listeners is if you’re feeling downtrodden, because you have been in a toxic workplace, this is hard to do, but just take a step back, you know, your value, you know, how smart you. You know, you’re worth, there is an employer out there who will recognize that and pay you appropriately for it.

[07:47] In some places, it may be easier to find than others, but this is a time when employees have more empowerment than they’ve had in a long time. And so if you have the ability to do it, this might be a good time to exercise. I

[08:01] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: love that encouragement because a lot of people don’t hear that. We, we don’t hear that in the real world, going through life.

[08:07] We don’t have that kind of encouragement. Like you just offered for the listener. You had that planted in you when you were a young girl. Can you tell us about that?

[08:16] Christine Spadafor: Yes. This is one of my favorite stories and I was blessed to be born to two exceptional people. My father, he was a big, strong, humble, very accomplished man.

[08:28] When I was five years old. We were going for a ride somewhere, me in my little red snowsuit with leggings and my mittens. And I don’t know how the conversation came up. I don’t remember what I asked my father, but it had something to do about what I wanted to be when I grow up. So I don’t remember what I said to him, but here’s what he said to me at five years old, he said, little girl you can do and be whatever you want.

[08:55] Anything is possible. I believed him. So he gave me wings to fly and I never looked.

[09:02] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: For the listener, who’s sitting there saying, wow, that’s awesome, Christine. Like how inspirational I wanna be that kind of parent to my children, but I didn’t have that. I had maybe the opposite in a lot of ways. How does that person help themselves?

[09:17] How do they change their cognitive bias against themselves that says I’m not good enough and I’m not capable enough and I’m not smart enough. And I can’t hang with, you know, whatever level. Professional or personal person I wanna be around. How do they handle that?

[09:35] Christine Spadafor: Well, first of all, that’s a really hard place to be.

[09:38] I’ve been there after being, you know, told so many times you’re not this enough. You’re not that enough while I was coming up through my career because of my father. I didn’t believe them. Here’s what I would encourage for your listeners and something I learned too late. So don’t do what I did. You don’t have to go it.

[09:57] And I thought I did. I’m tough. I’m strong. I’m persistent. I can plow through this and yes, in large part I could, but it was much harder and much less effective going it alone. So what I would recommend is if you don’t have a mentor find. Here’s the thing about mentorship. Ideally, your mentor is someone who is making a contract with you to be in relationship.

[10:28] And ideally it’s structured. You have set times you have set agendas. All in service of advancing your professional development, it helps get rid of all these negative pieces in your head. It doesn’t take care of all of it, but it helps illuminate how talented you are. Someone else is giving you that affirmation.

[10:49] I think the best way to go about finding a mentor is number one, you don’t need just one put together a list of the gaps in your development. That you want to fill, maybe it’s a leadership gap, maybe it’s around financial analysis and then find people who are experts in those. Ask them to help you fill those gaps more often than not.

[11:10] They are glad to do it. But again, remember, this is not a kind of one off. This is a contract that you make. I’ve been blessed to have tremendous mentors. Now, interestingly, we never. Declared it as a mentorship, but it very much was a mentorship. Maybe it’s your supervisor, or if you are, as I was a consultant, maybe it’s the person who’s leading the engagement.

[11:33] You can learn a lot from them, ask them for some special time. So there are people out there who want to help you get rid of these negative traits that you’ve been saddled with, but at the core of it, you know, aren’t true. It’s hard to dig outta that hole. It took me again longer than it needed to. I tried to do it alone.

[11:53] Another way to help with this is to have a sponsor. Now, mentors and sponsors are not the same thing. A mentor, as I mentioned is someone who’s going to work with you side by side. Talk with you about professional development advances, a sponsor. Ideally is someone in your company who is influential, who is well respected and appropriately placed to be listened to because they’re gonna talk about you when you’re not in the room.

[12:21] This is the person who needs to know your work well, who will be in that room table, banging for you, advocating for you when it comes time to staff a high visibility project, when it comes time for promotions, when it comes time for races. So having a mentor or mentors. And a sponsor as part of your own team will really help advance your true capabilities and show them off as they deserve to be.

[12:52] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: For the listener that is very practical, very actionable. That’s something you can do. We always ask our guests for something that we can do in the next 24 to 48 hours. And that is absolutely it. So for the listener, I hope you caught that. Go back and listen to that last couple of minutes if you need to.

[13:08] But of course we’ll be in the action plan as well. Christine, I wanna go back to the concept of the rate resignation and the perseverance and. You know, when it’s okay to quit, you have a couple of examples, you know, would you be willing to share a couple of examples from your life when you felt like maybe you’ve stayed too long or, or maybe, maybe you quit when it was the

[13:28] Christine Spadafor: right time?

[13:28] Again, as I put in the post, one of the mistakes I’ve made of the many that I’ve made was staying too long. Here’s one example. I was working for an organization, a global organization, and it’s a fabulous company. It is well respected. It is well regarded. It is known all over the world. It’s an exemplary company.

[13:49] I was assigned to an office where the culture looked very different than it looked to me globally. You can try to assess culture as much as you want, but until you sit in the seat, it’s really hard to know what the culture of a company or in this particular instance, a specific office location will look like.

[14:10] I was the most senior and first senior woman in the office. There were a number of junior women in the office. And so I took on the responsibility of mentoring and being a role model for these women because they’d not had a senior female role model before what I found, not from my colleagues, but from the office lead was that I was pretty unwelcome because I didn’t grow up in the office.

[14:35] Like the other senior people in the office had done sort of parachuted in from the side. Now, why was I assigned to this? I was assigned to this office because coming from another firm, I brought a global fortune 10 company with me. And with that came millions of dollars in end engagement. This particular office had been trying to crack the code to get into this company for years.

[15:00] Here I walk in and just hand them the engagement, because this fortune 10 company, the executives I was working with said we don’t care which company you work for were coming with you. So I delivered that to this office, but that didn’t seem to make much of a difference for the office. Lead, even to the point where my team and I had worked very hard to prepare a briefing for the executives of our client.

[15:26] And this office lead came in and basically high checked the whole meeting. He busted my boundaries and afterwards I should have had a different conversation with him than I did. I should have stood up to him and taken him to task for embarrassing, me and my. In front of the client, by the way, the client didn’t want him there.

[15:46] The client wanted me and my team there. So the client didn’t like this either, but because I felt my position was on such a thin thread with him. Anyway, I didn’t speak up enough if I had a chance, I would do that over. And so I knew this was not the place for me, so I quit.

[16:04] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Would you be willing to share the other story as well that we talked

[16:06] Christine Spadafor: about?

[16:07] Yes, I was brought in as a turnaround CEO for an organization. And as many of you know, it’s very turbulent in a turnaround. This organization had only two months cash on hand and the idea was we just need to keep this place open. So there was a lot of heavy lifting on the part of everyone, the staff, the clients, everyone, the community.

[16:30] As part of my new CEO role, I started to build my own team and I hired a terrific executive to sit in the C-suite. And after a while, he and I talked about him getting a raise, which he absolutely positively deserved. The mistake I made was being so focused on having so many plates in the air. At one time, I dropped the plate and did not have the follow up conversation with him about a raise that was totally on.

[16:58] He’s a very kind smart, capable man. And one day he came into my office and handed me a letter of resign. And I asked him why. And he said, because you promised me a raise and I didn’t get it. We had a really deep, authentic conversation. I told him how much I value him, how important he was to the success of the turnaround and the organization going forward.

[17:26] I apologized, I told him it was an oversight on my part and said, of course we’ll make the Ray retroactive and it will be effective, immediate. Because of how the conversation went. I then took his resignation letter and slid it across the table, back to him. And I said, I value you. You are important member of this team.

[17:48] And I hope we never have this conversation again. And he stayed with me through my entire 10 year tenure. So you pulled

[17:55] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: a George Castanza from Seinfeld on him. You didn’t, when he tries to break up with his girlfriend and she doesn’t allow him, you didn’t even allow him to resign. that’s a great

[18:04] Christine Spadafor: story.

[18:04] You know, I don’t believe he truly wanted to resign, but he felt unseen. He felt that his work, his good work, his long work was not being acknowledged. And because I dropped the ball on that, I understand how he felt that way. So we just needed again to have. Really face to face heart to heart authentic conversation.

[18:29] And you know, years later, we’re, we’re still in touch. He went on to do great things and is still doing great things, but I’m grateful. I was there for nearly 10 years and he stayed with me the whole time.

[18:39] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: For the listener. We are hearing these amazing stories of failure from an amazing leader, one of the best leaders in the country, and she’s experienced these failures, she’s experienced these struggles and I hope this normalizes the failures that you’ve experienced along the way.

[18:56] And I hope you can understand that yes, you are capable, right? Whether your father pulled you aside when you were five years old and, and planted that mindset into you or not, you are capable, not just. Despite your failures, but because of your

[19:11] Christine Spadafor: failures and one other piece I’d like to add is. What I really tried to do when I didn’t get it right.

[19:19] Was reflect on it and learn from it. I never missed another employee’s raise because it so affected him. It hurt him again, the human aspect of it. He’s not just the guy who sits in the C-suite, he’s a human with deep feelings and I hurt his feelings and that made me feel terrible. So what can you learn from these after I quit, I set up my own.

[19:44] Just like many people in the great resignation are doing, they’re setting up their own business. I set up my own business and all my clients came with me. I didn’t know that was going to happen, but that’s what happened. And I’ve been busy for 17 years since

[19:57] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: quick interruption. Hey, if you like what you’re hearing, be sure to get the notes quotes in links in the action plan from this episode, just go to JimHarshawJr.com/ACTION. That’s JimHarshawJr.com/ACTION. To get your free copy of the action. Now, back to the show now in this LinkedIn post and in the, the accompanying, uh, New York times video again for the listener. Well, those will be in the action plan. You talk about quitting, but quitting is kind of the same thing as failure.

[20:26] Isn’t it? I mean, I I’ve found success in my life because I didn’t quit. Right. And wrestling, if I’d have quit, when things were hard, I would not have been an all American in my business if I would’ve quit when things were hard. And I was trying to build this business while I had a full-time job, I wouldn’t be standing here talking to you today.

[20:42] Like, you know, I found success because I didn’t quit. Like how do you, how do you reconcile that?

[20:46] Christine Spadafor: I think it takes a deep look into why you want to quit. Do you wanna quit? Because it’s a toxic workplace. That’s one thing. Do you wanna quit? Because you think you’re being underpaid and someone in another company is gonna offer you $20,000 more.

[21:00] That’s a different scenario. There are many scenarios as to why one might want to quit. Quitting gets this negative connotation for people listening. If you’re in a toxic workplace and it’s about your mental health taking care of your mental. I think is a priority. And if one has the ability to quit and find a place that respects you more and treats you with integrity, hopefully you’ll give it a look again.

[21:28] It’s very individual. If people have the ability to quit primarily again, many times based on economics. And can

[21:35] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: I interject and just. You the listener, you have more ability than you realize, and this might be in a relationship too, right? Where, where someone is putting you down and, and it’s toxic and you feel like, okay, well I’m not worthy enough to, for another relationship or I’m not worthy enough in your professional life for another job, because I’m told I’m not good enough, or I’m not getting the promotions, like get out and talk to people and test the waters.

[21:59] You have more capability than you think. Like, for example, Christine. Quit. And, and you started your own firm and guess what your comp, your clients came with you, you, that wasn’t a foregone conclusion, but, but you had more in the tank, you know, you had more assets than you even knew. And, and for the listener you do as well.

[22:16] Now you can’t, this goes back to another point that Christine made you can’t go it alone. Either mentor, sponsor, coach people around you who can support you mastermind group, don’t go it alone. You’ve got more than you think you do.

[22:31] Christine Spadafor: Yeah. If I could quote the great author, Alice Walker, she said people who give up their power think they don’t have any, all your listeners have power.

[22:42] Every single one of you listening has power and don’t let anyone else tell you, you don’t again, you know, dig deep and recognize that and act on it. Whatever acting on it may look like. But you have more power than, you know, so hopefully that’ll be some rocket fuel for you to think about. If you’re making a next move, you have power.

[23:07] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: But failure is scary. Failure is not something we wanna seek out. You know, if we’re, you know, we’re in this toxic work environment or someone work environment, we just don’t wanna be there anymore. And we wanna go out on our own or we want to look for a new job or a new career or a new industry or a new company it’s scary.

[23:24] And we fear failure. I mean, what is your mindset on failure? And are you okay with it when you, you know, face that? How do you, how do

[23:30] Christine Spadafor: you handle. If you’re in a toxic environment, my hunch for not all of you, but some of you, you feel like you’re failing because that environment is telling you that you’re failing, who needs that you’re better than that.

[23:45] You’re better than that bullying supervisor you’re better than that toxic coworker. You’re better than being passed over for those promotions over and over again. Or if you’re a person of color dealing with micro aggress. Every single day. You’re better than that. So it’s, I think sometimes hard to, to separate.

[24:06] Yes. Nobody wants to fail cuz it’s reputation and what are people gonna think? All those sorts of things. But if you are in that toxic environment, They’re telling you again, broad strokes here that you are a failure. No, we’re not gonna promote you. No, we’re not gonna listen to you. So put it in that context as well.

[24:27] And that’s not failure by your own terms. Let’s someone imposing failure on you and you’re better than that. So separating that now about failure in general, and maybe this was because of my dad. I don’t like to fail. But here’s what I learned. I learned a lot from my failures. It made me smarter. It made me more resilient.

[24:49] And here’s the thing again, to speak in extremists failure. Won’t kill you. It’ll make you feel bad. Might damage your reputation, but it won’t kill you. You have the power. I’m just gonna keep coming back to that. So I wasn’t afraid of the broad sense of failing, cuz I thought if I fail, the world’s not gonna end.

[25:09] I’m gonna feel awful. I’m not gonna know what to do. I’m not sure how to recover, but I know I’ll be okay and learn a lot from it. And you know, I probably learned that from just my dad when I was riding in the car with him that day in my red snow.

[25:24] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: So as a woman in the corporate world that you often found yourself as the only woman in the room, like where did you find your confidence in those moments and how did you handle.

[25:36] Handle that. And how, why did you think that maybe goes back to your dad, but why did you think you belonged? When a lot of people were, a lot of young women were taught that they didn’t

[25:45] Christine Spadafor: belong. One of my greatest strengths about being the only woman in the room is I was consistently underestimated. I’m a thin woman with a little voice.

[25:56] And so what’s she doing here, but you’re at the table because you’ve earned a spot at the table, not because you’re token and they just needed a woman in the room, but because you’re smart and capable and you are expected. To contribute. Nobody wants to be a token. And so there’s a great quote from Ursula burns that says I’m here because I’m as good as you.

[26:22] And yes, the men may mansplain been there or as the brilliant late Madeline Albright said, um, she would come up with an idea. Everyone would pass it. And then a man would say it and they’d say, he’s brilliant. I wish I had a dollar for every time. I sat in a room full of men. So men, if you are listening here is your to-do list and you can start doing it today.

[26:49] Be an ally to your female colleagues. If you see microaggressions. If you see inappropriate conversation when she does something great. Celebrate her, tell people about it. If you are working on an interesting project and you need another smart person, look for a smart colleague, be an ally to women. This goes back to the, we don’t have to do it alone.

[27:14] And this is particular. For women. So men we’re asking you to step up Brad Johnson and David Smith have written a number of articles and books about men as allies. And I would encourage the listeners to take a look. So men, we wanna be partners. So we’re looking to you when you see something not right, or when you see an opportunity to elevate your female colleagues, it’s your responsibility to do.

[27:44] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: DEI diversity equity and inclusion is a big topic of discussion these days. Why specifically gender diversity, but I mean, racial diversity too. Why is diversity important? I mean, shouldn’t, we just hire the best candidate?

[27:58] Christine Spadafor: Well, by saying shouldn’t, we hire the best candidate that assumes that, you know, any person of color or any woman isn’t necessarily the best candidate.

[28:05] And that’s just not. But I think

[28:07] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: when people say that and, and I think, you know where I’m coming from and I’m teeing you up for the answer here, but like, shouldn’t, we just hire the best candidate regardless of gender or race.

[28:17] Christine Spadafor: Yes. And here’s the thing. How do you find them so many times executive searches or maybe looking at boards of directors, you know, go to what I’ll call the usual suspect pools, broaden the search.

[28:30] Go to the historically black colleges go to groups like women, corporate directors who have an army of capable women ready for board service. So broaden the search with intentionality and you will find smart, capable, C-suite ready, people manager, ready, people, board ready people. To competently serve and add value to whatever organization is looking for.

[29:00] One thing I want to mention is diversity. Doesn’t equal equity, doesn’t equal inclusion. So we lump them together, but diversity, and let me mention diversity. So yes, it’s race, ethnicity. It’s kind of the usual suspect, but let me add some other pieces of diversity that I think are really important because.

[29:21] It’s not just about those kind of quick demographics. It’s about intersectionality. It’s diversity of thought. It’s immigrants. It’s looking at people’s country of origin. Talk about having a rich, a very rich group to pull from that is more diversity than just looking at race and ethnicity. I’m gonna put age in there because there is some age discrimination, but particularly diversity of thought.

[29:50] But when you get these different groups in there, the outcomes in my experience are always more elegant. and richer than if you just sort of look again, I’ll use it glibly, but sort of the, the usual suspect. So diversity goes beyond race and ethnicity and I would encourage companies. I know they’re tracking, you know, how many people of color do we have?

[30:16] How many women do we have? Okay. Those are your stats. Now what goes beyond that? In terms of intersectionality, how many of those people are getting promot? How of those people are getting raises. How many of those people are getting put on high visibility projects? How many of those people are moving into the C-suite so great.

[30:35] Have your numbers aren’t we great. We’ve got 50 50 or whatever, but I would encourage organizations to go deeper than that. Let me give you a for example, when I was CEO in the same organization where I dropped the ball on my executives raise our population population. We served included white, black, Latino, L G B T.

[30:57] It included America. It was the face of America. And so I designed a staff that more than 50% of the staff were women and people of color in LGBTQ because the staff I believe needed to reflect the people we serve. So having in mind that as a part of a leader, Uh, a hiring person’s, uh, diversity. Think about who you’re serving and think about what your employee makeup is as well.

[31:25] Now, my employees match the people that we served, and so it gave much more resonance to our customers. So looking at it broadly, diversity is being invited to dance. And I’m sure you’ve heard this before versus inclusion, which is being asked to dance. So you can get your numbers in. But again, back to my previous point, what next, what happens after that?

[31:46] Once you get your racial stats and your ethnicity stats and your female stats. So what, and no one wants to be in token. And if inclusion, isn’t part of this, they’ll likely feel like a token. I wanna talk about salaries and salary transparency, big gap between women and men. So this is now the E part of DEI.

[32:06] Um, women make 82 cents for every dollar that a man makes it’s even worse for women of color equity includes. Again, not just looking at the racial and ethnic equity numbers. We’ve got 50 50, but taking a look at pay disparity, particularly with gender equity in pay, which continues to be a very big problem.

[32:31] There was national pay equality day, March 15th. What is that it’s been going on for 26 years? Why do we even need that? If employers had transparent salaries, people would get paid the same for the same job. Again, I’m oversimplifying now, again, there’s going to be performance and there’s gonna be levels of education and experience.

[32:52] So there’ll be some ranges in there, but in general, why do we even need to have a day like that? My hope is that we have no need to have a 27th commemoration of national pay equity.

[33:08] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: We’ve come a long way. There’s a long way to go long

[33:10] Christine Spadafor: way to go progress, but a long way to go. Yeah.

[33:13] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Christine, thank you for your time. Thank you for bringing your wisdom and your experience and your stories of success and your stories of failure.

[33:21] Christine Spadafor: Thank you. It’s my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me and remember everyone you have your own power. Use it.

[33:31] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Thanks for listening. If you want to apply these principles into your life, let’s talk. You can see the limited spaces that are open on my calendar JimHarshawJr.com/APPLY where you can sign up for a free one time coaching call directly with me. And don’t forget to grab your action plan. Just go to JimHarshawJr.com/ACTION.

[33:50] And lastly, iTunes tends to suggest podcasts with more ratings in reviews. More. You would totally make my day. If you give me a rating and review those go a long way in helping me grow the podcast audience, just open up your podcast app. If you have an iPhone, do a search for success through failure, select it, and then scroll the whole way to the bottom where you can leave the podcast, a rating and a review.

[34:16] Now I hope this isn’t just another podcast episode for you. I hope you take action on what you learned here today. Good luck. And thanks.

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