[00:00] Evan Nierman: There’s this misperception that the only people who are at risk of cancel culture are CEOs of major corporations or famous individuals, celebrities, sports stars. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[00:20] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Welcome to another episode of Success Through Failure – the show for successful people and for those who want to become successful. The only show that reveals the true nature of success. This is your host, Jim Harshaw, Jr. And today I’m bringing you Evan Nierman.

[00:36] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: So today we’re tackling a subject that is more relevant than ever before. It’s cancel culture. And I don’t want you to think that this topic is only for celebrities and high-profile people. It’s not – it’s something that can impact everyday people like you and me. And our guest, Evan Nierman, he’s a crisis PR expert who’s been in the trenches for nearly 30 years, guiding people from presidential candidates to private individuals through just the minefields of public scrutiny. His business, his company is called Red Banyan. They’re a top tier PR agency, and they’ve really mastered the art of what they call “pressing the truth”. That’s a registered trademark term that they use to help. People navigate through high stakes in crisis-filled situations. And like I said, this is not just for people who are celebrities and high-profile – he gives us some great examples of just regular people who have had this done to them and how to handle it.

[01:35] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: He’s handled things from Ethiopia’s international reputation to steering startup companies through media or hurricanes. I mean, this guy’s he’s seen it all and he’s got so much to offer us here today. He’s written some game changing books on crisis communications, including his latest book, which is titled “The Cancel Culture Curse”. And if you think this is politically motivated, you’ve got to hear his take on politics. This guy has a balanced view and he gives us both sides – the way that cancel culture is looked at from both sides and how both sides use it. It’s really, really an open-minded take on cancel culture. So he’s going to reveal to us in this conversation, how it’s more pervasive, and how it’s more dangerous now than ever before, and more dangerous than you think, and how you can really navigate it through something like this with grace and with poise.

[02:49] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: So grab your notebook, grab your phone with the notes app, because you’re going to take a lot of notes here. You’re going to get yourself a masterclass on modern-day survival. And you probably know somebody who would really benefit from this episode. So give it a share, somebody maybe whose faced cancel culture, or maybe a conversation you’ve had with a friend recently about this, but give it a share. That’s how these things grow. And that’s how these podcasts like mine find new listeners. So thank you for that in advance. All right, let’s get into my interview with Evan Nierman.

[03:01] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: We have all heard of cancel culture. This is just not something that only celebrities have to deal with, right? I mean, why should the listeners care about this?

[03:08] Evan Nierman: Great question. There’s this misperception that the only people who are at risk of cancel culture are CEOs of major corporations or famous individuals, celebrities, sports stars. Nothing could be further from the truth in fact those people need to worry less about cancel culture, because they’ve got legions of people around them and they’ve got the best agents, the lawyers, the crisis managers, the publicists, the attorneys, the accountants, you name it. It is actually professionals, small business owners, entrepreneurs, upwardly mobile folks who are sort of in the upward trajectory of their career who most need to be concerned about cancel culture, because the people who fall in that category typically don’t have all – let alone in some cases any – of those things.

[04:04] Evan Nierman: And so this is the kind of phenomenon that can come out of nowhere and can take someone who’s got a very promising career, very successful up to this point and throw a wrench in those plans, render them completely radioactive moving forward – disrupt, derail, destroy careers. And that’s a shame. It’s why it shouldn’t be happening. And that’s why I wrote the book, The Cancel Culture Curse, to fight back against this notion. And to tell people this absolutely can happen to you. Let’s talk about ways that you can fight back if you need to, and how to avoid being canceled in the first place.

[04:42] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: So you wrote a book about cancel culture. You must be a hardcore right-winger, right?

[04:47] Evan Nierman: The furthest from it, actually. It’s really funny because a few people told me when I explained to them what I was writing about. They were like, aren’t you scared that you might get canceled if you write a book that’s opposing cancel culture? And I said, of course not – because I talk in the book about how to fight back against it and I do communications and PR for a living. So I’m not that worried about my reputation or what could happen to me. But as far as this right-wing nonsense, this has become a label that’s been actually applied to me only since I wrote the book.

[05:21] Evan Nierman: Before that, you know, all my Republican friends assume I’m a Republican. My progressive Democrat friends all presume I’m a Democrat. I am a down the middle, traditional, independent swing voter. And so in my book, I critique the left. I critique the right. I condemn extremism on both sides – and the practice of cancel culture, whether you’re a Democrat doing it or Republican, it’s fundamentally un-American and it’s wrong. And so I’m doing this as someone who actually is a patriotic American who believes that we should have the freedom of speech, freedom of expression. Ideas should be debated. We should be able to have discussions on podcasts in the public forum and talk about these things. And if I disagree with you, Jim, doesn’t mean I should come after you, try to harm your career and try to deplatform you and silence you. Is there anything that’s less American than that? I don’t think so.

[06:21] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Amen. Hallelujah. We need more people who are down the middle and can see both sides and just are not putting partisanship over patriotism, which is what we see so much these days, and I think it’s just such a terrible thing for America. So I love the fact that you’re down the middle. I love how in your book you do address this from both sides and you’re not picking a side, you’re just sharing the truth. I freaking love it. So Evan, a couple of examples. You and I talked about a few examples of people who have been cancelled. Can you share some of those?

[06:52] Evan Nierman: Yeah, well there’s, turn on your TV, open up a newspaper, log on, and every single day there are more examples of people who are victims of cancel culture. You want to, you want to talk about a celebrity or you want to talk more about an everyday citizen?

[07:08] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Let’s talk about the 3 that you and I spoke about. Dave Chappelle was the first one. What happened to him?

[07:12] Evan Nierman: Okay. So Dave Chappelle, he’s been fighting back. Look, I coined this phrase for people who are proponents or fans of or engagers of cancel culture. I call them cancel vultures because like vultures, they like to swoop down, they feed upon the dead remains of others. And so these cancel vultures, they like to tweet, they like to blog, they like to do their podcast. They like to go on YouTube and upload videos and they like to talk about other people’s pain and try to convert that into eyeballs, likes, follows, et cetera. Monetize it in some way. They seem to revel when other people are brought down a peg and the cancel vultures were coming hard for Dave Chappelle for quite some time.

[08:01] Evan Nierman: He had been sort of painted with this brush that he is a transphobe. He’s an enemy of the trans community because he has these really controversial views that men are men, women are women, et cetera. Look, I don’t want to get deep into the trans debate because I actually think that the extremists on both sides are wrong. Again, I tend to tack towards the middle, but the fact is he is in a line of business – comedy – where you’re supposed to hold up a mirror to society, you’re supposed to point out things and make fun of them, mock them, get laughs. That’s his business. And the thing that’s remarkable about Dave Chappelle is when people started coming for him, they tried to deplatform him, he followed the cardinal rule that I talk about in the book, which is simply refusing to be cancelled.

[08:56] Evan Nierman: To not kowtow to the mob, don’t let the cancel vultures win, and Dave Chappelle, rather than doing the prepackaged faux apology, or hostage apology, where he’s delivering this apology that he feels obligated to make, but that he clearly doesn’t believe, instead of doing any of those things, Dave Chappelle was basically like, “Look, I’m going to say what I want to say, I’m a comic. I got opinions. If you don’t like my opinions, okay, that’s your problem, not mine.” So that would be one example where he just simply refused to give in and he’s done pretty well. He’s got his Netflix specials. He’s got a lot of people showing up to his shows. So anyone who thinks Dave Chappelle has been canceled, that’s wrong.

[09:43] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Quick interruption: hey, if you like what you’re hearing, be sure to get the notes, quotes, and links in the action plan from this episode. Just go to jimharshawjr.com/action. That’s jimharshawjr.com/action to get your free copy of the action plan. Now back to the show.

[10:01] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: How about Jason Aldean?

[10:03] Evan Nierman: Similar, similar in that he refused to be canceled. I like actually, and it just occurred to me: Dave Chappelle. Black guy, Jason Aldean, white guy, country singer, kind of two different places on, perhaps, I don’t even know on the political spectrum where they fall, but it doesn’t matter. Both entertainers, Jason Aldean has a song, the song “Try That in a Small Town”. Nothing’s made of it, he posts the music video, and then immediately there’s an uproar online, people are saying, oh, he filmed it in front of this courthouse, there’s a history 60+ years ago, there was a lynching outside in that location. He’s giving a dog whistle to the hard right. They pointed to the video itself, which showed protesters fighting with police. And all of a sudden all the media coverage was, this is a pro-vigilante song. This is a song promoting lynching.

[11:00] Evan Nierman: And Jason Aldean, similar to what Dave Chappelle did, he didn’t kowtow to the mob, even though country music television immediately folded. They pulled the video from its rotation. Jason Aldean actually went public. He released a statement. He said, “Look, I’m reading all these things people are saying about my song. That’s not what my song is about. And I know, cause I wrote it. What it’s about is love of country patriotism. This is what I was talking about. So I’m not going to let someone else shape the narrative.” And so he took control, he told the story, he pressed the truth, and as a consequence: song was at the top of the country charts and Jason Aldean’s doing just fine, thank you.

[11:41] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: And you had a personal story as well: Michelle McFarland.

[11:44] Evan Nierman: Yes. So she’s someone who I would venture to guess none of your listeners have heard of, and there wouldn’t have been any real reason to hear of her, unless you happen to be in the bridal industry. So she’s a woman in Michigan, outside in the suburbs of Detroit, had a bridal shop. Something like 30-40 employees – very successful business, but a typical small business enterprise. How many of those exist in America? It’s the lifeblood of our economy. She’s also well-known within her industry because she was the former president of one of their industry associations, the bridal something association.

[12:21] Evan Nierman: So Michelle, this is the scenario. Let me paint a picture for you. She goes on vacation with her husband to Las Vegas to just relax a little bit post-COVID, get a breather. She wakes up in Vegas, looks at her phone, and she’s got tons of messages: hate mail, people telling her, “We’re going to destroy your business. We’re going to cancel you. We are going to boycott you. You don’t deserve to be in business.” She’s looking at her social media feed and she’s thinking, “What are they even talking about? What did I do? I’ve been here in Vegas with my husband, eating good meals and going to shows.” Well, it turns out there was a big controversy in the political sphere of folks in Michigan who didn’t want to certify the vote from Detroit. There was debate over the legitimacy of the presidential election when president Trump was running against president Biden. And someone who was one of those Michigan legislators – I forget what the actual title is, but someone who was going to be certifying the vote – this other woman had tweeted before, something related to Michelle’s store.

[13:31] Evan Nierman: Didn’t mean that the woman owned her store. Didn’t mean that she was associated with them in any way. But all of a sudden these cancel vultures on Twitter jumped on it and they said, “Oh, she’s an entrepreneur. She has a business. Let’s take her business down and make her pay for what she’s doing. She’s raising questions about the legitimacy of the election. She’s trying to deprive people of their votes. Therefore, let’s take down this store.” And so Michelle McFarland was literally in a fight to save her business over a case of mistaken identity. Now in her case, she reacted very quickly. She actually called us. My team worked with her. We helped her get a public statement out.

[14:08] Evan Nierman: We went directly to the online influencers who were really stoking the flame, explained to them, “Listen, you’ve got all these people amped up. You got the wrong person. She has nothing to do with any of this. She sells wedding dresses. She’s not a political activist in any way, shape or form.” And in Michelle’s case, she did such a good job of advocating for herself that she boomeranged the story around. She got local media to come and tell the story about how a local businesswoman was being oppressed in the case of mistaken identity. And she was able to not just protect her business, but build her reputation further. And her business is thriving today.

[14:48] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Wow, very cool. So what’s the history of this thing, this cancel culture? I mean, is this just a new phenomenon or has this happened in the past in other forms?

[14:55] Evan Nierman: There’s always been forms of protest in this country. And there’s always been forms of boycotting other people speaking out and having disagreements. That’s been since day one in America. Even before there was a United States, think about why we founded this country, is because we wanted our own freedom of religion. We didn’t want to basically report to and worship and have fealty to a king. So this whole democratic enterprise was predicated upon the idea that we want free thought, free expression, et cetera. So there’s always been these ways. And if I disagree with you, there’ve always been mechanisms by which I could raise my concerns.

[15:39] Evan Nierman: There’s due process, if I think you’ve wronged me. What’s different this time is cancel culture is a totally new phenomenon because it leverages the tools that are unique to the world that we live in right now: the hyper speed at which information travels, the interconnectedness of the Internet, the fact that everybody’s got one of these in their pockets, they have a cell phone, they could pick up and with a couple of taps, they can broadcast to the world. They can mobilize people. So cancel culture, make no mistake about it. It is a new phenomenon. It’s building upon these protests of the past, but it’s an entirely different thing. And the main element I think that makes it different is the permanence of what the cancel vultures are trying to do. If you make a mistake, or if you’re in a case like Michelle McFarland, where you actually haven’t done a single thing wrong, the cancel vultures want to punish you. They want to exact their pound of flesh and they want to render you unemployable for the long term. That’s new. It’s wrong. It has to stop.

[16:43] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: What are the elements of being canceled? I mean, we talked about this. We generally have this idea out there of what being canceled means, but you have an acronym that’s, I think, really helpful for the listeners to understand, like what exactly it means to be canceled, these elements. Can you share what that is?

[16:59] Evan Nierman: So the acronym, it’s super easy to condemn and it’s really appropriate here. It’s condemn, but it’s C.A.N.D.E.M. And so if you look at instances of cancel culture and you apply these elements, you’re able to tell, is this cancel culture? Is it not cancel culture? And it raises the alarm and you can recognize it. And if you recognize it and you define it, then you can start to defeat it, which was part of the reason that I wrote the book in the first place.

[17:26] Evan Nierman: So if you run quickly through the acronym, the C is that the crime is committed against a collective, so it’s not just that you’ve, you know, if you and I get into an argument or Michelle McFarland, it wasn’t the transgression that she was being accused of was that she was on the right and she was transgressing against either black people or people on the left in Michigan, and that’s not based on my personal opinion. These are based on the comments she was getting in the hate mail, et cetera. So it’s a collective, whether that’s gender-specific, religion, political identity, et cetera. A is that it arises and it accelerates quickly. It does that because [of] the permanence of the Internet, what exists there, how quickly information travels. The N is that the nature of the offense tends to be either fabricated as it was Michelle’s case, or it’s blown out of proportion. The D is that it prompts a disproportionate response. So, in her case, disproportionate response meant: we’re gonna boycott them. We’re gonna shut them down. We’re gonna put them out of business.

[18:33] Evan Nierman: We’re gonna ultimately make sure that 35 people aren’t able to bring home paychecks that they use to support their families. The E is that everyone is afraid to defend the accused. And you see this happen with cancel culture all the time. And the reason is, people are afraid to defeat to defend the person who’s under fire because they don’t want themselves to become targets of the ire. And then the M in CANDEM is the moral absolutism by those doing the canceling. And again, this speaks to these people who are proponents of cancel culture and support this and engage in this. They believe that the punishment fits the crime and the more extreme, the better. And that if someone makes a mistake, well, if they lose their job, if they’re totally destroyed online, if they can never date again, well, darn it. They’re a bad person. They did something, they did something and they deserve it. And I’m not going to lose any sleep over it. So those are really the elements: CANDEM.

[19:32] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: And a lot of these, they’re up for debate to some extent, right? It’s disproportionate. Like if I’m a cancel vulture, like I don’t think it’s disproportionate. I think they deserved it, right? So there’s an opinion here too, right. They have to take into account.

[19:45] Evan Nierman: You do, but what you see with cancel culture is almost always, what the cancel vultures are going for is the most strident, the most extreme, the nuclear option. And often times they won’t be satisfied until they get that. So you can get someone who’s caught, for instance, on a video or they tweet something stupid. And then I’m thinking of a case of a football coach. Well, then what do they want? They want to go to the university and demand – not that the person be suspended, not that the person have to undergo some sort of sensitivity training, or an education.

[20:22] Evan Nierman: No, the demand is fire him. And if you don’t fire him, well then, we’re going to make sure that moving forward students don’t matriculate at your university. And we’re going to go to all the alumni. We’re going to cancel you too. And so what that led to was in a lot of cases, both companies, public institutions like universities, when they would get this onslaught, emails, social media posts, phone calls, et cetera, these coordinated campaigns, the first response was always the most extreme: get that person out of here, keep the mob away from us. I believe that’s starting to change though. Part of it is the people who end up getting fired, summary execution of their careers, they end up lawyering up and saying, look, this is this was a violation. I should have deserved a second chance. There could have been other ways to go. And I think that there’s also a greater awareness now that cancel culture sometimes gets it wrong, that the practice is wrong. And sometimes the rush to judgment, you need to actually take a breath, pause a beat and actually investigate and not just be taking extreme action because you feel pressured by public sentiment. I think that’s changing.

[21:33] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Yeah, I think so too. So the examples we talked about so far – Dave Chappelle, Jason Aldean, Michelle McFarland – these were all examples of the left canceling the right. And it sounds almost like based on our conversation so far, the left is bad. The right is innocent in not doing anything wrong. I think, it feels like it goes both ways. Am I wrong?

[21:54] Evan Nierman: It does go both ways. And I think what you’re seeing is in this case, these were all examples of it going one way politically, but it definitely goes the other way as well. And I think some of the ones that come to mind are looking at Target, what they did with Pride Month. They became, pardon the pun, but they had a bullseye on their back coming from the right. And then you look at Bud Light as another example. I think there’s a catch phrase, which is really, it kind of took hold. This was the summer of the boycott and the slogan that was being bandied about was: go woke, go broke.

[22:34] Evan Nierman: And really what you saw was the right adopting many of the tactics of the left. And they’re – you turn on right wing media and they’re very quick to condemn cancel culture, using it as an example of the political correctness gone too far overreach by the progressive community, but then the right is also guilty of doing this too. And it’s happening on both sides, and whether it happens emanating from the left or emanating from the right, I think it’s wrong. Look, there’ve opined on this subject. There was even a book written about it from a completely different view than mine. And it essentially made the case that when Democrats employ cancel culture, it’s a good thing because it is bringing our society-

[23:20] Evan Nierman: It’s leveling the playing field and they’re pushing back against this patriarchal white cisgender straight dominance over people of color. And that’s kind of the view. But when the right uses cancel culture, it’s terrible because it’s meant to protect this institutionalized racism and therefore, you know, what’s good for me is bad for thee. I disagree with that fundamentally. I think the practice is wrong. I think ideas should be debated. I think you may, and I’m not saying you do Jim, but you may have some ideas that I think are just nuts. I think you’re wrong. They offend me. I think you have no idea what you’re talking about. Well, guess what? That doesn’t mean I don’t think you should be able to have your podcast, that you should be able to say what you want.

[24:07] Evan Nierman: That’s a fundamental freedom as Americans. And if I disagree with you, we know that this is a made-up example, but if you had said something that I disagreed with, well, guess what? I could ask you to come on your podcast and I could tell you: here’s where I think you got it wrong. Here’s why what I think you said was inappropriate. I want to have a debate with you. I want to discuss it. But think about how different that is fundamentally and how you view that versus me getting all my friends and all my contacts and coming and trying to bombard you with 1-star reviews and trying to get you deplatformed and going to all the distribution channels of your podcast and saying, well, Jim’s a terrible guy. I don’t think you want to stand for the same horrible things that Jim does. So when you start to put it in that perspective, it hopefully changes the way people think about it. And people in business, people who have professional careers, small businesses, they need to be thinking about cancel culture, and they need to be committing themselves to making sure that if and when they do face some sort of a controversy: one, they take the requisite steps to not get into trouble in the first place.

[25:14] Evan Nierman: But if they do, you gotta be willing to advocate for yourself. You should not just fold. Don’t just pack it in. If people are saying things that are not true about your company, or about you, you have to tell your story. Because no one is going to tell it for you. You’re not going to find a surrogate who’s going to have more on the line than you do. And so it’s really incumbent on all of us as business people, but also as private citizens and individuals. We all have our individual reputations. Ben Franklin said it can take a lifetime to build a reputation and mere moments to lose it. And he was right. So we all have this responsibility. Even if it’s hard, even if we’re getting bad comments on Twitter, even if people are attacking us, we’ve got to be willing to defend ourselves.

[26:00] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: There’s this balance that you’ve talked about it a little bit, but this balance that we need to strike that is really hard – because if I see somebody doing something that I think is not just something I disagree with, but absolutely wrong. You know, I’ll admit like as a human being, I would want them to be canceled, I guess. And I’m a fairly down the middle kind of guy as well. It’s so hard because that is against American values to do that.

[26:29] Evan Nierman: It’s against American values. It’s also against biblical values to those who are religiously motivated, you know – judge not lest ye be judged. At the end of the day, you said something interesting. I was thinking to myself while you’re saying; yes, if I see someone who’s doing something that I find morally objectionable, yeah, I want them fired. But I would just say, who appointed you the judge? And more importantly than that, with cancel culture, you’re not just deciding that you’re the judge, the mob is taking on the role of judge, jury, and executioner.

[26:59] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Evan, this reminds me of a great quote that I heard from Stanley McChrystal, he’s a former four-star general, and he said this: he said, “Our enemies often have a rational position, and it’s very defensible. In many cases, if you put yourself on the other side of the table, you could see their position, and except for fate, you may be on that side.” This is a general who had people who wanted to shoot, who wanted to put a bullet in his head and wanted to kill his men and women that were reporting them, that were fighting for him. And this, I mean, what an amazing leader this guy is. He’s built an amazing reputation as a leader. He’s written some great books as he was a coauthor of a book who I had the other coauthor, Jeff Eggers, on here and Navy SEAL. But this is an amazing leader who takes this stance, which would be very hard to take whenever these other people want to kill me and they hate everything that I represent. And I’m at war with them. I’m in an actual war with them. And I’m actually able to say, if not for fate, I might be on that side of the table. I thought that was pretty, pretty profound. And an example of really what you’re talking about here. Like everybody has a point of view and we shouldn’t – we need to to have some empathy and understanding, even if we disagree, completely.

[28:15] Evan Nierman: It’s profound. It’s insightful. And I think, General McChrystal is 100% right. And we have to also keep in mind our views and our perspectives are colored by so many different individualized things. So the way that I see something may be fundamentally different from how you see it based on the upbringing that I had, what part of the country or what part of the world I was raised, what’s my religion versus your religion. We all come with these very different views and different life experiences. And I just think it’s a good reminder. And General McChrystal said it really well, which is we need to not rush to judgment, but we need to respect the fact that other people have different perspectives and try to walk a mile in their shoes and put ourselves on the other side of an argument and that’s a mature, rational, reasoned approach. And all too often, that’s not what happens when a cancel culture incident happens. Instead, people just rush to the extreme. They rush to judgment. They don’t bother to try to understand context or to put themselves in the other person’s shoes. They just want to react – and they react in a strident way.

[29:28] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: So Evan, let’s, let’s wrap this up and make this really actionable for the listener. Can you leave us with some sort of actionable things we can do to number one, protect yourself and number two, deal with this if we have to face this. And this is a success through failure kind of experience, right? That’s the name of the podcast. And this may be a failure, or maybe just an adversity that we have to face, but how do we protect ourselves and how do we handle it?

[29:52] Evan Nierman: Yeah, and I love the notion of success through failure because – when I’m not writing books as just kind of a side gig, and I felt like this book was a calling, I needed to do it because I’d heard about how regular real life people were getting their lives destroyed by cancel culture – I run a crisis management firm. And we see all the time that the flip side of crisis is opportunity. And if someone actually makes a mistake or they make a misstep, but then they handle it properly and they take accountability and they rectify it, they can actually engender more customer loyalty, more respect, and they can turn that negative to a positive and they can take that failure and turn it into a success.

[30:30] Evan Nierman: So I’m a big fan of the podcast itself and also the overarching message. A couple of things to do is one: if you go to cancelculture.com, I’ve got a couple of different resources that people can download there that are totally free. One is 10 ways to help make sure that your organization and you become cancel-proof. So that’s a resource with 10 actionable items that people can then take back to their business or to their lives. One of the key things that we talk about is just being cautious on social media and deciding what you put out into the world. And if you follow the two basic rules of share with care and post with purpose, that you’re careful about not revealing too much personal information, and that you’re also making sure that what you’re saying advances how you want the world to see you – and it’s a positive and respectful tone, as opposed to attacking someone else, or putting them down. And is that tweet, is that post – is it going to age well? Well, you need to keep that in mind. So if you share with care and post with purpose, you’ll avoid a lot of the incidents.

[31:34] Evan Nierman: Another downloadable that’s on that cancelculture.com website which is there: 10 things for parents to talk about with their kids, about safe usage of the Internet, and what to teach our kids about cancel culture. Because if you’re like me, I got two kids. Not only do I not want my kids being on the receiving end of cancel culture, I also don’t want them to be active participants in it. And I want them to understand that part of growing up is making mistakes and part of what we are as all humans. We are all fallible. We all make errors, and it’s the learning that we get when things don’t go well. Cancel culture is very dangerous because it basically says there can be no learning or success through failure. Failure is permanent. Failure is the end. And I don’t believe in that. And that’s why I’m really excited to have had the opportunity to come on today and talk this through with you.

[32:31] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Likewise. Evan, where can the listeners find you, follow you, buy your book, et cetera?

[32:35] Evan Nierman: @evannierman on Twitter. You can google Red Banyan, which is the name of my company. I invite people to contact me on LinkedIn, Twitter/X, Facebook, you name it, or drop me a line: evan@redbanyan.com. I answer all my own email.

[32:53] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Excellent. Evan, really interesting and insightful conversation. Thanks for making time to come on the show. Yeah.

[32:59] Evan Nierman: Thanks for having me.

[33:03] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Thanks for listening. If you want to apply these principles into your life, let’s talk. You can see the limited spaces that are open on my calendar at jimharshawjr.com/apply where you can sign up for a free one-time coaching call directly with me. And don’t forget to grab your action plan. Just go to jimharshawjr.com/action. And lastly, iTunes tends to suggest podcasts with more ratings and reviews more often. You would totally make my day. If you give me a rating and review, those go a long way in helping me grow the podcast audience. Just open up your podcast app. If you have an iPhone, do a search for success through failure, select it, and then scroll the whole way to the bottom where you can leave the podcast, a rating and a review. Now, I hope this isn’t just another podcast episode for you. I hope you take action on what you learned here today. Good luck., and thanks for listening.

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