[00:00] Thomas Curran: So we bring cyclists into the lab, and we say, “Okay, here’s a goal that you should meet: a certain distance in a certain amount of time based on your fitness that you should be comfortable for you. Go away and race after that goal.” And away they go, and at the end we tell each and every one of them, no matter how well they did, “Oh sorry, you failed – but it’s okay because you got another chance. Have another go.” Now what’s really interesting is: the non-perfectionistic people don’t really change their effort on the second occasion. If anything, they put in a little bit more. But the perfectionistic people, people who score higher perfectionism, their effort drops off a cliff.

[00:40] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Welcome to another episode of Success Through Failure, the show for successful people in for those who want to become successful, the only show that reveals the true nature of success. This is your host, Jim Harshaw, Jr. And today I bring you Thomas Curran.

[00:58] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Thomas Curran is the world’s foremost expert on perfectionism – something that, if you’re listening to this podcast, you probably have a little bit of a dose of this yourself. Thomas is a professor of psychology and behavioral science at the London School of Economics. And he’s the author of the book, “The Perfection Trap: Embracing the Power Of Good Enough”, and he gives some great examples of very successful people who are and were perfectionists, and some very successful people who were not perfectionists – and explains how, even those who were perfectionists, how they may have found success and then how you can actually find even greater success by not being a perfectionist. And certainly there are some traits that we think about them as good, positive things that will help you be successful as far as perfectionism goes, but Thomas actually debunks those and talks to us about how there’s no correlation between perfectionism and performance. So, fascinating interview. I absolutely love this. And I know that you’re going to love this and I know at least one other person who is going to enjoy this episode. So think about that one person, that parent or that friend or that coach or that teacher who, that one person who you can share this episode with. Just let them know about the Success through Failure podcast and tell them to check out episode #421 with Thomas Curran. All right, here we go. Let’s get into my interview with the world’s foremost expert on perfectionism, Thomas Curran.

[02:33] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Your research has uncovered a rise in perfectionism among college students. And I think that probably extends to the rest of us, myself included. Social media seems to be the biggest contributing factor. Are there any other factors that we might not be aware of contributing to this?

[02:47] Thomas Curran: Yeah, social media, absolutely. No doubt about it. Obviously a huge projector of limitless images of perfect lives and lifestyles, but it isn’t just social media. I think there are other aspects of modern life that definitely push on the need to be perfect. I think schools, colleges – there’s high pressure to excel almost as soon as you walk through the school gates with standardized tests and the rankings and setting, and then you need to get to college, which is really competitive. And then when you get to college, it doesn’t really stop, and it keeps going and the pressure just keeps ratcheting up. So there’s definitely pressures there to achieve and excel – in the workplace too, right? Like you’ve got this incessant need to hustle, grind, kind of almost bound your identity to your work and make it a lifestyle that’s also, I think, has an impact on our need to achieve and excel and be perfect. And parents in practice has changed too. Parents have become more expectant in response to those academic pressures. And I think they’re having an impact as well. So there’s a whole litany of factors, I think, that can help us understand why perfectionism is rising, but you’re absolutely right to highlight that it is rising and that should be cause for us all to really think about why that is.

[03:58] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Yeah, why? Is this something that should just drive us? Why do we need to be concerned?

[04:03] Thomas Curran: Because perfectionism is very different to things it’s often conflated with or confused with. Things like conscientiousness, meticulousness, diligence, all these things are really amazing things and they encapsulate the high standards and the needs and an active, optimistic need to improve, do better. Perfectionism is very different to those things. And the reason why it’s problematic is because it comes from a place of deficit, a place of lack. A need to feel like we are worth something in the world for our performances, for our appearances, for the outcomes of our actions. And when we haven’t achieved, when we haven’t performed or we haven’t appeared perfectly, we fear that other people are going to see that. They’re going to judge us harshly. And as a consequence, perfectionistic people really hide from the world. They disguise all their imperfections and flaws, very human imperfections and flaws that each and every one of us has in the service of gaining other people’s approval and validation. And that’s an exhausting way to live. And it’s really problematic when things start to go wrong.

[05:02] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Is there room for hustle and grind? I mean, those are some of the things that, I mean, for people who are in my line of work, write books and have podcasts with that name and the title, and they promote hustle and grind and embrace the grind, all of this. There’s sort of a culture of, I’ve heard it called hustle porn out there where people are posting on social media, just hustle and grinding. Is there room for that too? Is there some good to that? And where’s the tipping point?

[05:33] Thomas Curran: Well, the best one I had was in embrace the grind set, which I had recently, made me laugh. Look, it’s all over the place right now. And look, there’s no problem with working hard, wanting to do well, having aspirations, having high goals. All of those things are great. Absolutely. No problem. The difficulty becomes when it starts to take over your entire existence and your lifestyle and your life and your identity becomes bound to your goals, aspirations, and outcomes, particularly in the workplace, right? This is where it becomes really problematic because then you sacrifice things that are important to you, things that are very rejuvenating, like time and time with your family, time with your friends, exercise, good diet, good sleep, all these things are really rejuvenating. By the way, all these things are really important for performance. You can work hard, but you can also work too hard – unsustainably hard – and that can end in burnout. So yes, look: nothing wrong with working hard. Nothing wrong with any of that, but it’s got to be sustainable. It’s got to be healthy and it’s got to be balanced. And I think perfectionists go too far in one direction and that’s why it doesn’t necessarily correlate performance.

[06:32] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Yeah. Hold that thought: I want to know why it doesn’t necessarily correlate with performance. I want to go deeper there, but first, I think back to my own wrestling career and – I’ve talked to you about my TEDx talk about why I teach my children to fail and I failed my freshman, sophomore and junior year in college to reach my goal and leading into my senior year, I finally realized that I can’t control the outcome. All I can control is the process. And I’m just going to do everything that I can possibly do that’s in my power. And the outcome is going to be what it’s going to be like. I can’t, I literally can’t – I released the outcome to God, to fate, to whatever you want to call it. And I focused just on the process and it allowed me to put down this fear of failure. And I think to use your terms in based upon your research, I let go of perfectionism. I let go of trying to be somebody who I wanted to be that I wasn’t, just in the pursuit now of the process of being the best version of myself, whatever that version ended up being. Is that kind of the crux of what we’re talking about here?

[07:48] Thomas Curran: Gosh, yeah. That’s so liberating, isn’t it? Just to let things go. Because there are many, many things we can’t control in life. And I think the perfectionist’s biggest, I guess, roadblock or self-sabotaging way of thinking is that they can perfect and control everything, that everything in all around them can be stage managed. And that’s so important, by the way. That’s the whole part of the perfectionistic existence is to manage impressions all the time. When actually it’s just not the case. There are so many things that happen to us we can’t control: grief, heartbreak, loss, health scares. Global pandemic, comes around the corner, screws everything up. These are things we just simply cannot control. And the moment you let that go, the moment you accept that, it’s almost like taking a sledgehammer to perfectionism. Because it really stops you blaming yourself for the things that are way beyond your control and handing yourself over to fate. And of course, fate is nothing personal. Sometimes things will go well, sometimes they won’t. That’s okay. The important part is the journey – having aspirations, goals, and a destination that you want to get to is really, really important, but it might take longer than you think it’s going to take. And there’s going to be all sorts of hurdles along the way, accepting that knowledge and that makes you more ready to take on those hurdles. And cope with them in a way that’s really healthy and adaptive rather than the way, which is the perfectionist way to just self-love and self-criticize.

[09:15] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Quick interruption. Hey, if you like what you’re hearing, be sure to get the notes, quotes, and links in the action plan from this episode, just go to jimharshawjr.com/action. That’s jimharshawjr.com/action to get your free copy of the action plan. Now back to the show.

[09:33] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: For the listeners: wrestling is kind of my background. My sort-of early view of the world came from wrestling. And I follow a lot of Olympic gold medalists and world class performers in that particular sport and in other sports – but a lot of wrestlers in wrestling interviews, in my social media feeds. You hear these top highest-level performers, and they don’t find their identity in wrestling, in the one thing that they do. I mean, the best of the best truly find an identity in something bigger than just like their performance. And now I do believe that some of that is they’re trying to, right? Maybe they do have their identity in their thing, but they know that the best way to get themselves to perform the best and just to show up and be the best version of themselves, results be darned. They talk themselves into letting go of the outcome and focusing on the process.

[10:31] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: And this is where performance psychology comes from. This is sports psychology 101. But it’s so critical to see that and understand that these world class performers – and again, talking to the listener, like understand that Steven Covey had a great concept in the seven habits of highly effective people: start with the end in mind. We all know that. We all know that we all want to be millionaires and Olympic gold medalists and the CEO. Whatever it is of your walk of life, we know that the outcome that you want is there. You truly have to find ways to release the outcome so that you can just show up and be fully yourself. And that’s not an easy thing to do. So Thomas, you mentioned that there’s not a correlation between perfectionism and performance. Tell me about that – because it really seems like there should be, right? The person who’s at least in the way that we see and think about perfectionism is like, “Oh, they’re meticulous and have attention to detail, and they work really hard”, but you’re saying there’s no correlation between perfectionism and performance. Talk about that.

[11:38] Thomas Curran: Yeah, the data says that there’s weak to non-existent correlations. And that’s really curious because you’d think that perfectionistic people would be more successful. You see successful perfectionists all over the place: Steve Jobs, Serena Williams, John McEnroe, the rest of it. And you know that they work really, really hard. So what explains that paradox? Well, what’s happening is a couple of things. Perfectionists do work hard. They burn out. Basically, they work unsustainably hard and they burn out, and burnout is not conducive to performance in the slightest. But there’s a second, more interesting reason than the burnout explanation for why perfectionism doesn’t correlate with performance. And that’s because perfectionists are world champion self-sabotagers. So, as I mentioned, perfectionism is a very defensive mindset; focused on deficit, avoiding mistakes and failure. And so what tends to happen when perfection is challenged is something really interesting. We show this in the lab. So we put an interest in sports because we use sports a lot. Sports are a really interesting conduit for examining failure. So we bring cyclists into the lab and we say, “Okay. Here’s a goal that you should meet: a certain distance in a certain amount of time based on your fitness that you should be comfortable for you. Go away and race after that goal.” And away they go. And at the end, we tell each and every one of them, no matter how well they did, “Oh, sorry, you failed. But it’s okay because you got another chance. Have another go.” Now what’s really interesting is the non-perfectionistic people don’t really change their effort on the second occasion. If anything they put in a little bit more.

[13:07] Thomas Curran: But the perfectionistic people, people who score high on perfectionism, their effort drops off a cliff. They stop trying because in their minds, they can’t fail at something that they didn’t try at. And this is what goes on in the mind of the perfectionists. They’re so intently and acutely aware of the impact of failure and how that looks to other people, that they will go to the lengths of self-sabotaging their chances of success just to avoid failure. So they avoid, they withdraw, they withhold. And this doesn’t just look like complete withdrawal, it can look like partial withdrawal. Things like procrastination is very strongly correlated and tied to perfectionism, because perfectionists find it really difficult to attend to really complex tasks that require a lot of mental energy. And the worry and doubt about their ability to do those things means that they just want to avoid those feelings: go away and watch a Tiktok video or go away and cook up a recipe or do something, anything else just to avoid the intensity of that task. But of course, they’re just damaged by the passage of time. So none of these things are particularly conducive to performance: burnout, avoidance of complex tasks and procrastination. And yet perfectionist people do them all the time. And this is why perfectionism doesn’t have a strong relationship as performance as we think it should.

[14:17] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: You mentioned Steve Jobs and John McEnroe and others. How do they do it? From the outside looking in, they appear to be perfectionists, and you’re saying that they’re not.

[14:28] Thomas Curran: Well, I say they are perfectionists, but they got to the top despite their perfectionism, not because of it. And I’ll tell you why. Because what we’re suffering from here is something called survivorship bias. What we’re seeing in these high-profile performers are people who made it through some very intense selection process, and of course they needed a lot of daring, a lot of effort, a lot of talent, a lot of risk taking and a lot of creativity and all amazing things. But they also relied on a lot of luck and being in the right place at the right time, meeting the right people, coming from the right background. If they’re an elite athlete, having genes that are conducive to the sport that they’re excelling in, for example; things that are way beyond the purview of those perfectionistic tendencies. And yet all we see is a perfectionist tendency because all we see is a tip of the iceberg. We’ve got to be really aware of this selection effect because it can dupe us into thinking that just because these people who’ve made it through that process are perfectionists, then it must be perfectionism that got them there when actually it’s other factors that are probably way, way more important. And what we don’t see are the millions and millions of perfectionistic people who are doing exactly the same things, but don’t have the Olympic medal, don’t have the Fortune 500 company to show you for all of those hard work and tendencies. And our research shows quite clearly that perfectionism is more likely to end in exhaustion, burnout, and self-sabotage rather than making it to the very top. I’m not saying these people aren’t perfectionists, but I mean we have to be very aware of a survivor bias when we interpret them.

[16:04] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Yeah, that’s a great point. I think about the wrestling story that I shared earlier, but also whenever I speak in front of an audience, like I still get nerves, just like I’m going into a competition whenever I speak in front of a group – and I’m aware of the fact that when I try to give a perfect speech, I get really nervous and it’s really hard for me. And for anybody who actually – I mentioned my TEDx talk earlier, I was really nervous for that speech just for anybody who wants to go back and watch it again. I was so nervous that I had like planned word for word because it was like only a 7-minute talk and gosh, I was so nervous for that and you can’t tell. It came out great, luckily. So I succeeded at that, despite – in your terms, Thomas – despite my perfectionism, I gave what I think to be a good talk. But in all my other talks now, as a professional speaker, I let go. I have to consciously, intentionally let go of perfectionism and saying. “I’m going to nail every single point and everything’s going to be perfect.” I let go of that and I instead focus on – for me, I have to focus on service, loving, caring for the audience member, knowing that I’m there to love them and support them and to serve them. [It] takes my mind off of perfectionism and just allows me to show up and rely on my training and rely on my practice, as opposed to wishing and hoping, and putting the pressure on myself to have a perfect result.

[17:33] Thomas Curran: Yeah. And speaking as a vocation rather than a quasi-obsession, which is, by the way, your experiences resonate with mine when I did a TED talk, I was incredibly nervous and I was worried about failing and screwing up and mine wasn’t a good talk, but it wasn’t a bad talk either. And that for the perfectionist is good enough.

[17:50] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: By the way, for the listener, we’ll have that in the action plan. It’s a great TEDx talk.

[17:54] Thomas Curran: Oh, well, I appreciate that. Thank you, Jim. But the point is that that’s an important switch up in the mind, in my mind too, you know? My grandfather was a really good example of this. A master craftsman. And he made banisters, chairs, window frames, things that people used and enjoyed. His name wasn’t on them, he didn’t have his ego invested in anything he made. He just made them to leave them in the world because other people needed to use them. This wasn’t this obsession with reviews and all the rest of it that we have now. But he didn’t get, if someone’s supposed he did a bad job – well, you know what? As long as he knew he did his best, that was good enough. And if he left a bit of varnish off or whatever, it had just seen that as part and parcel of being a fallible human being, it just happens. But that’s very different to the perfectionist in mindset, which is basically, “Yeah, I can’t make any mistakes. Everybody’s watching and they’re waiting to let me know if I screw up.” And so you start to not do things for the reason that they should be done. That is to say, leave something in the world; leave a TEDtalk in the world, leave an impression on people. But instead doing it to try to avoid, at all costs, being seen to screw up or being seen to have that bulletproof narrative that you’re trying to erect yourself shattered by one terrible outcome. And it’s just so – I can’t emphasize enough. It’s such an important switch up to be able to see it as something that you’re something that’s a vocation, that you’re leaving something good for people to use in the world. And that’s a really important way to approach these things.

[19:22] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: We talk about the John McEnroe’s and the Steve Jobs who – maybe – found success despite their perfectionism. I think it was Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell’s book, who talked about Steve Jobs and Bill Gates and some others in that sort of generation who there was a certain sequence of circumstances that led them to be in the right place at the right time, etc. Obviously, he’s worked very hard and all the great things that Steve Jobs did and Bill Gates has done. But do you have any examples of people who have actually become high achievers, who actually found that balance between perfectionism, or maybe not even perfection? Maybe they found the balance between paying attention to detail, working really hard and having peak performance. Like from your research, any sort of behind-the-scenes glimpses into the lives of these individuals. Do they exist out there? People who have achieved a really, really high level [of] “We’re not perfectionists and we really didn’t burn out”?

[20:21] Thomas Curran: There’s loads of examples that you can look to people that appear – on the surface anyway – to have a very balanced and almost serene outlook to success and who’ve made it to the very top. I can think in the business world of someone like Richard Branson, for instance, who’s talked quite openly about how these excessively high standards and striving all day and night isn’t the way to success. I can think of people like Bob Dylan in the music world, for instance. He was quite clear that perfection is an unattainable goal. And he knew that he didn’t have an amazing voice, but the story was the most important thing. You know, it’s a meaning, the purpose, the telling of tales that bring light to life and light in his own life and in other people’s too. I mean, if you’re Roger Federer, an incredibly talented athlete, but who’s natural – certainly natural talents – have taken him very far. But he also, when you listen to him speak, has a very philosophical outlook on life and seems a very compassionate guy, takes success and failure in his stride and focuses more on the process, as you mentioned at the very top. That’s very clear in his narrative. So you can point to so many examples of people that have succeeded and they’re not particularly perfectionistic, but unfortunately, modern culture often points us in the direction of the obsessive people – the Musks and the Jobs and all the rest of it, who seem to be exceptionally hard working. And we don’t see the others who’ve done more-or-less the same outcomes, but with far less stress and strife, if that makes sense.

[21:55] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Ed Sheeran. I’ve recently seen some interviews with Ed Sheeran talking about how he simply embraces who he is, fully embraces who he is, all his self-proclaimed weirdness and struggles in his own life. And he had a stutter when he was younger. Just so many challenges. And now he’s a world-renowned musician and known by many, many millions of people around the world, not despite his lack of perfection, but in a lot of ways, because of his lack of perfection and how he’s embraced that. And it’s fascinating to see those. And you’re right. We don’t really highlight those. We just see the person on top of the podium or on TV or ringing the bell on Wall Street, and we don’t really know their backstory. And a lot of times it includes failure. So that’s what I want to ask you about next Thomas is: you embrace the notion of, or you talk about the notion of embracing our imperfections in the book. Can you provide any insights into how individuals – myself, the listeners – can reframe our relationship with failure and view it as a stepping-stone towards growth and towards success? How do we look at failure as a stepping-stone and not a setback?

[23:10] Thomas Curran: There are a number of different, very specific techniques. We can talk about self-compassion, making sure that we are kind to ourselves when we haven’t, when we slipped up or things haven’t quite panned out the way we planned, reframing irrational beliefs around how it must and kind of softening, “While it would be nice to, it would be great if”, pushing ourselves out there, being courageous as Brené Brown talks extensively about. But I think the main one really is to rekindle a sense that actually what matters is not making it, but rather living with purpose and meaning. And Nassim Taleb did a really interesting experiment: he found that if to make it to the very top of any profession – they use the example of sport, we’ll sort of stay with that – you have to be a six-sigma individual. That’s 1 in 1.4 million people actually make it to the very top. It’s a completely improbable goal. Now, not to say that it can’t happen and not to say that, by the way, we can’t have aspirations like those aspiration. But the point is, it’s important to remember in our minds that it may not happens. In fact, it’s highly likely not to happen. And that actually, even if we get one or two standard deviations away from the mean, that is an objective success. That still makes us above 60% of the population, still makes it above 95% of the population. Those are objective successes. But if all we see is a 0.01% or the unicorn achiever or the CEO or the Olympic champion, then it kind of gives us a warped sense of what’s realistic.

[24:40] Thomas Curran: And if we can accept that we’re very likely to be way closer to the average than we are to be closer to Elon Musk or Steve Jobs, and I think that gives us a bit of permission actually to work hard. And if our talents and abilities take us up, that’s great. Enjoy it. But also if they don’t, it’s okay too. And actually what’s most important is for us to live with a sense of purpose, meaning working hard and trying within that new context of success, i.e. if we can make it one standard deviation. If we can make it two, that is really how we can define high performance and success. And it takes a lot of pressure off ourselves to shoot for what are incredibly unrealistic ideas that modern society celebrates. So purpose, meaning way more important than the outcome and tried to figure out success within a framework of that’s realistic and achievable. And if we can do that, I think we’ll take a lot of the pressure off ourselves to excel, excel, excel, and be perfect all the time.

[25:42] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Boy, that concept, that idea of permission. It’s interesting. If you can give yourself that permission to work hard, have aspirations, but failure’s okay, and you may or may not get there. If you can actually embrace that. Ironically, that is the path that will more likely get you closer to success. It’s just this ironic twist that you have to embrace: that you will more likely succeed if you let go of the outcome. And it is a mind trick that – for the listener – that I walked into a match against the fourth ranked wrestler in the country, the national championships, my senior year in front of 15,000 people, fully knowing that my life as I knew it was on the line, thinking that, believing that, that if I win and knowing that if I win this match, I become an all-American. And if I lose, I go home again with nothing at the end of my wrestling career. And letting go; I literally had to let go. I had to force myself in that moment to say, listen, go for it. And if it happens, great. If it doesn’t happen, that’s fine too. You have to be okay with that. And gosh, it’s not an easy balance to strike, but it is something that for the listener, if you can find ways to, as Thomas said, live with passion, live with purpose and chase your best and make it just simply you against you and not you against the world. Not only do you perform higher, but you actually have a lot more fun and you’re a lot happier. Again, I’m using this one sort of example, the senior season I had where I had so much fun competing. I’m using this as an example because it’s the most stark example in my own life. But I had so much fun and so much enjoyment that year, just embracing the process as opposed to feeling the pressure. And that translates directly to the lives of the listeners as well.

[27:27] Thomas Curran: Yeah, yeah. It’s so, so important.

[27:30] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Thomas, any tactics? Like, how do we do this? Any daily tactics, habits, routines? What can we do in the next 24 to 48 hours – or start doing – in order to shift our mindset and start moving away from perfectionism and more towards simply focusing on the process, not the outcome?

[27:48] Thomas Curran: Well, there’s a few things, as I mentioned. I would definitely encourage you to practice self-compassion. I think that’s so, so important. As I mentioned, reframing those irrational beliefs around perfectionism is also crucial. You’re often going to tell yourself you have to do something. This is so, so important. And if I don’t, everything’s going to come crashing down. Well, actually: do you actually believe that? And is that reasonable? And is that a rational belief? Often it’s the case that it isn’t. And I’d encourage you when you’re thinking those things and tying yourself in knots, and putting yourself in the pressure to actually write those thoughts down, rate them as to what extent you actually believe in them and try to find more constructive, realistic, and compassionate ways to reframe those beliefs. So reframing is also really important. And then I think finally failure, as you mentioned, is so crucial to success. It’s so crucial to learning. And it’s also very humanizing too. We were just human beings. We are flawed. We are fallible. We are exhaustible. And there’s something quite freeing and liberating in understanding that and realizing that failure is just part and parcel of being a human being. It’s humanizing. It’s not humiliating. Those are three messages I’d send out to your listeners.

[28:56] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: And humanizing in a way that really is authentic. It’s genuine. And that breeds stronger connections, better trust, more credibility, et cetera. And again, for the listener, you know, Thomas is talking about writing this stuff down. You can’t just listen to this podcast episode and then go back to being a perfectionist. You have to actually do something about this, right? Whether it’s journaling, working with a coach, which is what we do. You have to hit the pause button, get out of your own head and actually do things, you know. Meditation, anything that’s going to bring mindfulness and awareness in the long term.

[29:30] Thomas Curran: Absolutely.

[29:31] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Thomas, where can the listener find you, follow you, buy the book, et cetera?

[29:33] Thomas Curran: You can Google me: Thomas Curran, The Perfection Trap. The book will come up and it would be great to hear from listeners. If you do pick up the book, I love to hear from readers. So please do get in touch.

[29:44] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Excellent. Thanks, Thomas. Appreciate your time.

[29:48] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Thanks for listening. If you want to apply these principles into your life, let’s talk. You can see the limited spaces that are open on my calendar at jimharshawjr.com/apply, where you can sign up for a free one-time coaching call directly with me. And don’t forget to grab your action plan. Just go to jimharshawjr.com/action. And lastly, iTunes tends to suggest podcasts with more ratings and reviews more often. You would totally make my day if you give me a rating and review. Those go a long way in helping me grow the podcast audience. Just open up your podcast app. If you have an iPhone, do a search for Success through Failure, select it, and then scroll the whole way to the bottom where you can leave the podcast a rating and a review. Now, I hope this isn’t just another podcast episode for you. I hope you take action on what you learned here today. Good luck. And thanks for listening.

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