[00:00] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Prepare to have your view of personal development turned upside down as we reveal a groundbreaking concept that explores how embracing our flaws and our limitations might just hold the key to unlocking deeper connections, lasting love, and a more compassionate view of ourselves and others.

[00:20] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Welcome to another episode of Success through Failure, the show for successful people, and for those who want to become successful. The only show that reveals the true nature of success. This is your host, Jim Harshaw, Jr., and today I bring you David Zahl.

[00:36] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: I’m always seeking out the best minds on personal and professional development around the concept, of course, of success through failure. And I brought you household names like Tim Ferriss and Jack Canfield. Sometimes the next best guest is right under my nose. And today that is the case today. I’m bringing you David Zahl. David is a member of the men’s workout group that I’m a part of here in Charlottesville. It’s called F3 and it’s a national men’s workout group. It’s always free. It’s always outside. For all the men listening, you should definitely Google it and see if there’s one in your town, but David’s nickname is Soapbox. I’ve always known him as Soapbox and he’s known me as Grappler. And oftentimes we don’t really know the guys from our workout, like their profession. We just kind of know them from the workout. Turns out Soapbox – David, my guest here today – he’s a nationally renowned author and speaker on a topic that is going to absolutely change how you think of yourself and how you think of others. And over the past couple of years, he’s been traveling the country, speaking about his book titled “Low Anthropology: The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others And Yourself.” Low anthropology. So that’s the concept we’re talking about here today. Before I bring David on, let me give you the definition of low anthropology. All right. It’s this: it’s simply a view of human nature that emphasizes humility, vulnerability, and a recognition of our inherent limitations and flaws.

[02:00] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Okay. So this is just a view of nature of human nature that recognizes that we’re vulnerable. We have weaknesses. We are not perfect, and we’re never going to be perfect. That’s low anthropology. It’s this concept that basically suggests that embracing a realistic understanding of our weaknesses, our imperfections, can lead to greater compassion and greater empathy, healthier relationships with ourselves, not to mention with others. And this is the opposite of high anthropology, okay? So the book is about low anthropology. What is high anthropology? Well, high anthropology is the opposite here. It tends to idealize our capabilities and can help guide us to thinking like we can be perfect. If we just keep optimizing and read one more book and listen to one more podcast episode, we’re going to reach this state of perfection. Well, no, we’re not going to, right? High anthropology leads us to believe that we can be perfect and force us to sort of create higher expectations that are unrealistic and lead us to just beating ourselves up and saying, “Why can’t I just lose that 10 pounds? Why can’t I be more consistent? Why can’t it be like this person I see on social media or Jocko Willink that wakes up at 4 AM, 4:30 AM, every morning and does his workout in his basement? Why can’t I be like that other person?” That’s high anthropology and that is going to grind you down to a pulp. So low anthropology encourages you and myself to see ourselves as flawed beings with weaknesses that we can certainly work on, but not beat ourselves up on it for not perfect. What you’re about to listen to is going to help shape your view of humanity – that is yourself and others – in a way that will allow you to let go of your insecurities and your anxieties, your fear of failure, as well as your judgment of others. And this is going to result in you having a stronger connections, a healthier view of yourself and others, and in the end, a happier life. So, all right, here we go: my interview with David Zahl.

[04:01] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: What led you to questioning the conventional views of human nature and set you on this path to writing this book? Where did the concept of low anthropology hatch for you?

[04:14] David Zahl: Well, like a big part of it, so – I’ve worked with college students for the last 15 years with undergraduates, especially young men, but also young women. I’m here in Charlottesville, where you’re also located. And I’ve done a lot of work through our church with that age group. And one of the refrains I just heard, over and over and over again, was that people thought that they were uniquely being left behind, or they were the only one who was not keeping up somehow that they’d… If people only knew that everyone else in the class was getting an A and they were just had no idea what was going on. I just heard that refrain too many times. Everyone else has a job but me, this kind of, I am uniquely messed up that you hear it enough. You’d be like, well, it seems like everyone sort of feels this way. And then, I work at a church. My faith is important to me, and I felt that there were some resources there that could be marshaled for a more sort of liberating view of human nature, that was at odds, or at least in contrast, to the mammoth expectations and pressure and sense of isolation and anxiety that young people were laboring under.

[05:22] David Zahl: And then of course, you hang out with your friends and with the guys you know, and the couples you know, and it turns out people are feeling this way at all levels of society. So it was kind of a compassionate desire to bring a little relief.

[05:37] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: The thing that really hooked me at the beginning of your book is: you referenced a comic or a cartoon where there’s a guy walking down the street and all these people are buttoned up and have their suit and ties on and they’re all looking good going to work. And he looked around and he says, like, he’s thinking to himself, “Why does everybody around me look like they have it together, but I don’t?” and he looks just like everybody else. So it’s not just this younger generation, and everybody’s thinking that.

[06:04] David Zahl: Yeah. They’re all thinking that too. It’s crazy. And you think you’re the only one and it turns out you just don’t know other people that well, is really why you feel that way, or why that you feel like you’re alone that way, right? I’m glad that hooked you though.

[06:16] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Yeah. I was reading it and going like, yeah, this is me. That whole… For the listener, I absolutely urge you to get the book. It’s a great book and a great read, but that first chapter really, really hooked me and really spoke to me. So what are the dangers of high anthropology? What is high anthropology and what are the dangers of it?

[06:35] David Zahl: Well, high anthropology is just a flattering view of human nature that kind of disregards our limitations or sees them only as obstacles, and views human beings as sort of rational creatures making reasonable decisions that are also going to live forever. So it’s a flattering view. It’s an attractive view of human nature, but it doesn’t take into account the actual data of our own lives. So I think that it’s therefore a lonely view, meaning: if who I am, if what’s most important about me is the ways that I’m getting better and better and better, well, then what happens if I secretly get worse or if I start to just get older and my body starts breaking down. Then do I just have to hide that stuff in order to maintain this vision of human nature? But I think that the combination of anxiety, the expectations we have of other people and ourselves can be truly cruel. In practice, they sound nice. But if I’m expecting people, even my spouse, my children, to not struggle or to not to be able to transcend their limitations, well, then that’s a recipe for resenting them when they fail to do that. And it’s the same thing is for oneself. And people hear that as kind of a negative view of the self. But it’s actually I think it opens the door for enormous possibility.

[07:57] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: What are examples where you’ve seen yourself, your friends, people in society, examples of where it’s easy to fall into this trap and fall victim to high anthropology, this higher view of humanity and how does low anthropology make a difference?

[08:15] David Zahl: Sure. I think one of the great lenses that we can use to unburden ourselves of high anthropology is to take seriously the matter of addiction. And addiction is something that people – yes, it’s substances, but it’s all sorts of other compulsive behaviors that we have, whether that be something pornography or whether that be shopping or spending money or even kind of health related stuff. If you think people’s problem, their misbehavior with it, say, when it comes to being critical, this is a great thing that I think happens in relationships. Two things are going on there. The critical person thinks that if they just impart the right information to me, well, then I will change. Now, we all know those of us who have been criticized in that way over time. Now, the right amount of feedback at the right time can pierce you like an arrow and help you. But a sort of a critical spirit that you have toward another person or another person has towards you shuts down any kind of dialogue. So I’m thinking of the couples that I know where there’s a divorce and they say, “Well, all I got from her was criticism. She never told me how much she loved me.” And she says, “I love him so much. That’s why I’m critical.” And it’s just not received that way. So criticism usually is based on an idea that if I just tell you what to do, you will be able to do it. But the matter of addiction tells us that in fact, a lot of times, behaving better is not a matter of knowing, it’s a matter of wanting.

[09:41] David Zahl: And so how do you motivate a person to want to do better? High anthropology says, if I just give you the facts, you’re going to be able to act on them. Low anthropology looks for other things at work. Oh, well, maybe this person wants approval more than they want improvement. Maybe this person wants love more than they want knowledge. I don’t know what it is exactly, but low anthropology looks for other reasons why someone might be misbehaving or might be acting in an alienating way. And that’s just the difference between compassion, and dialogue, and relationship, and judgment and sort of saying, “Sorry, I’ve washed my hands of this. I told you what to do and you won’t do it. So sayonara.”

[10:26] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Quick interruption. Hey, if you like what you’re hearing, be sure to get the notes, quotes, and links in the action plan from this episode. Just go to jimharshawjr.com/action. That’s jimharshawjr.com/action to get your free copy of the action plan. Now, back to the show.

[10:41] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: There are a lot of members of my community and clients of our coaching practice who, maybe they don’t struggle with addiction – and maybe they do by the way – but also a lot of people just beat themselves up for not being able to be more consistent and they just like, “Man, I wish I could just get myself to read more. I wish I could get myself out of bed early and go do that workout.” and they just feel like, “Why can’t I do this? I’m around all these other people who seem to have that part figured out, but I just can’t do it.” I mean, isn’t that – that’s part of it too for people. It’s just like these every day, these little things that we feel like we should be able to do. We should be able to be more patient with our spouse or get to work on time or just do those things consistently that it looks like everybody else does.

[11:34] David Zahl: Absolutely. And I think that’s high anthropology turned inward that I should be able to do this stuff, but I can’t. When that happens long enough, you just give up. That’s a recipe for despair, or loneliness. But if a good coach comes in and says, “These are actually common issues, you’re not alone in this. Here are some helpful practices. Let’s get down to the level of desire. What is it that you actually want?” I mean, the coaches, I’ve had some life coaching before and what they’re trying to get you back at the first principles. What are your values getting all the way down to the bedrock, instead of staying at the level of just behavior? Because our problems are never really a matter of, I think, information, but of agency.

[12:13] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Yeah. It’s not about the tactical. You can’t start with just the tactical. We have to go a lot deeper than that. And there’s this sense that – you mentioned earlier – we always feel like we should be getting better and better. And what if we’re not? Does high anthropology – or I should say, does low anthropology conflict with self-help and self-improvement? Because there’s a ton of books out there, podcasts – like mine, to be honest – and a lot of others, who are talking about different ways to improve yourself, different ways to grow, different ways to become more consistent or more focused or whatever that thing is that they want. If we adopt the mindset of low anthropology, does it mean we stop listening to those podcasts, stop reading those books and stop trying to improve?

[13:06] David Zahl: I think it’ll just depend on the person. I don’t think so, though. In general, I don’t think low anthropology conflicts with the desire to basically get a little better, and to the idea that you can learn things. In fact, low anthropology says there’s always something I can learn. A high anthropology sort of hammers you to that you’ve got to master everything. And I think if you approach whatever area you want improvement from, not from mastery, but for simply growth, there’s not really an end point to it. We’re incomplete human beings and limited human beings where we are concerned. I’ll just speak for myself. I want people to grow. And I mean, low anthropology basically says, by the way, that people are fundamentally in need of help. Like that’s one of the great truths of a low anthropology. You’re not self-sufficient. So where, where the help comes from will depend. But I think that for myself, I want someone to improve or to just heal out of a sense of freedom rather than threat. Or compulsion. So what do I mean by that? I think if you sort of adopt a low anthropology where the stakes are a little lower, you can all of a sudden re engage with areas of life that you, you thought were hopeless or that you’d, you’d given up the hope that you would master or something like that.

[14:25] David Zahl: And you can sort of come at them from a sense of play, a sense of freedom. I’ll try this new thing. It’s not the end of the world if I fail. In fact, as I think one of your key insights is, “Failure may in fact be the doorway to something better. It may be the only doorway to something better.” But high anthropology says don’t fail, like failure is not acceptable. Therefore it causes people to hide and to really wall themselves off from a lot of, I think the resources that they need in fact, to improve and to be helped. I do this exercise group that we’ve gotten to meet through. I don’t know if you can tell people that, but it’s…

[15:01] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Sure. Yeah. We talked about F3. Yeah. We’ve talked about F3 a lot on here.

[15:04] David Zahl: Well, F3 has been so incredibly helpful to me, and I’ve improved a lot, but a lot of the reason I’ve improved is that I’m sort of there for the sake of the guys, and for the play of it, and the kind of challenge. Yes, and my body gets challenged, but I start to improve not because I’m trying to reach some mountaintop, but because I’m actually there. I’m getting something from it on all sorts of different levels. And then improvement becomes almost like a byproduct. And that’s beautiful.

[15:32] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: And that group. Okay, so for the listener, F3 is this men’s workout group that David and I are part of. It’s national, and all the men listening should go out and check it out and try and find one locally in your area. But the other thing about F3 is we can look around and everybody is struggling at some point, and everybody is at times modifying – maybe because of injury or they’re not as fit and they can’t do the certain number of push ups or hill sprints or whatever it is. We all modify and have to struggle at some point. And the one saying is the workouts don’t get easier. You get stronger and you’re always going to struggle, and that’s okay. And then guys share their sort of deepest, darkest fears. Sometimes at the end of the workouts, guys are sharing these things of how they feel inadequate and broken and struggling, and when you see that in others, you go. “Oh, like I get that. I feel that way too.” This is the guy leaving the pack or leaving the workout today. And man, I thought he had it together, and here he is sharing his struggles. And it’s the same in my coaching group; we have all these high performing individuals who, if you look at their LinkedIn bio, you go, “Wow, they got it together”, right? They’ve checked all the boxes in their life. And they come together and they talk about their challenges, their struggles, and their worries, and their fears, and their anxieties. When you have that, you can let your guard down and you can, you mentioned freedom, like freedom is this concept of, “I can actually be myself”.

[16:58] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: I can actually be free. I interviewed a world champion wrestler – his name is Jaden Cox – on this podcast several years ago. And he said, “I finally started maximizing my potential and competing it in being myself, in competing with freedom, when I finally realized that failure actually is an option.” Like failure is an option. Like the whole failure is not an option. Like [poker], like it is an option. It actually [can] happen to you. And I’m not saying we want it to happen, but it can happen, and you can find success sometimes because of that, and sometimes despite that. But I really think high anthropology probably flies more in the face of self-development and self-help than does low anthropology. I think low anthropology allows you to say, “Okay, I know I’m going to struggle. I know that I’m broken. We’re all broken. We’re all going to struggle. And I’m open to ideas on how I can get better.” Knowing that it’s about focusing on the process, not the outcome. Now I’m not going to reach some perfect state and that’s okay. Like I just want to learn about myself. I want to go introspective and see; are there ways that I can be a better father, be a better husband, be a better boss, spouse, employee, whatever it might be? It allows you to explore those things and hopefully without judgment on yourself.

[18:16] David Zahl: And that’s a key dynamic here. That’s a really key dynamic. I think you’ve put the nail in the head. I mean, by and large, we’re swimming in a culture that can’t deal with the fallouts of perfectionism. And burnout is a huge word, or fatigue, you get today. And those are all the results of high anthropology that sort of doesn’t allow for chinks in the armor and it basically encourages people to run and hide when life happens. When the stuff of life happens, low anthropology doesn’t discourage the incredible gifts that people have been imbued with, which are all kind of different, but it encourages them in those from a point of view of needing to help collaboration. I mean, what is low anthropology if not an invitation to a friendship and collaboration and fellowship and all of the things that in fact, a perfectionistic, highly individualistic culture has a hard time with and the follow that we see all over the place? So sometimes you get some pushback on talking about this and people say, “Oh, that sounds like a kind of a shame-inducing thing.” And I’d say, “No, it’s far more shame-inducing to say that I can have it all, do it all, know it all, care about it all. I just haven’t been able to pull it off yet.” But to say that I can’t and therefore what are the opportunities where I do have an opportunity to make an impact? And that is ultimately going to also foster a better view of yourself, I think, rather than this kind of almost self-hatred, self-loathing that comes. It’s not meant to, and I want to say that these are the sort of cultural attitudes that get imported to us through social media and through – kind of a culture of very prosperous, celebrity or something like that. And Madison Avenue, when I’m talking to mostly sort of high achieving people and athletes are right in the. wheelhouse of this. What they need to be reminded of is their humanity and the fact that there is a little separation between what they’re able to accomplish and who they actually are as a human being, and that there’s some freedom for them that can sort of unshackle them from the treadmill sometimes that they feel they’re on in order to be worth breathing.

[20:26] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: The best ones are able to separate that. The best ones compete with gratitude and know that failure is an option, and they can separate their identity from their sport. David, you talk about vulnerability and the idea that really having deeper connections and stronger relationships is, or it’s built through vulnerability, but that’s scary: to be vulnerable, to share your weaknesses. Why is it that vulnerability allows us to make deeper connections? And for those of us like myself who struggle to share our vulnerabilities, what do you recommend? How do we do that?

[21:04] David Zahl: Well, first of all, I think the word vulnerability … I love it, but it’s been a little bit – it’s become a bit of a buzzword. I would replace it with transparency. Like I think you’re rather not hiding all the time. Why does it foster? Cause that’s where people connect. Like I can admire you for all your resume virtues. Isn’t that what they say? David Brooks’s book about the resume virtues versus the sort of eulogy virtues. I can admire you, but I don’t know you and no one feels loved or any kind of connection unless they’re actually known.

[21:36] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: That’s interesting. I never heard of that. Admiring you for your resume virtues and not your eulogy virtues.

[21:40] David Zahl: Yeah, I think it’s from this book, The Road to Character. I think that anytime you’ve fallen in love – any time any kind of sustaining love relationships we have in life, to the extent that they’re sustaining, they’re somewhat unconditional, or at least they’re birthed in sort of shared weakness. I mean, this is why fraternities do so well together, because they suffer together. They have stories about, you go to a wedding rehearsal and someone’s like, “I love this guy. Let me tell you about this time he almost got arrested our sophomore year.” Or “I can’t believe anyone would marry him, but I would go to hell and back for him.” It’s like brotherhood and women do the same thing, I think, in a slightly different way. It’s always forged out of weakness and the experience of sort of failure and kind of like, “Oh, that person saw me at my worst and they stuck around.” And it’s scary because they may see you at your worst and they may not stick around. That’s where rejection happens. But the people that the transformative relationships in our lives are the coaches who believed in us when we didn’t believe in ourself and who watched us at our worst, so therefore they saw us at our best too.

[22:44] David Zahl: I mean, it’s all of a piece, but if we outlaw or if we kind of try to deny our vulnerabilities, our blind spots, the cracks in our facade, well then we’re basically shutting out love. And I think that that’s a terrible thing. How do you do it? I mean, one of the things we do … that’s one of the reasons F3 has been great to me because I always joke that like, on the track, I’m reminded of just how differently each one of us have been gifted and I’m usually at the back, but at the end when we’re all gassed and we’re all so tired and we’ve all accomplished something together, but we’re really just sort of there, like we’re slapping high fives and we’re talking about how hard something was, well, then we feel close together. And we see that in other aspects. I mean, again, you don’t seek out failure. You don’t seek out weakness. That would be idiotic, but it happens no matter whether you seek it out or not. And the choices, the question is: is that going to be the birthplace of connection and hope and closeness and intimacy, or is that going to be the thing that I avoid above all else? And if the second’s the case, well, then you’re going to lead a very lonely existence, a very brittle. very, very brittle existence. And I don’t think that’s the sort of that makes for a very edifying way to live.

[23:58] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Politics and religion are two topics that are hard to talk about. How might politics and religion be different? How might those look through a lens of low anthropology? If we buy into this concept of low anthropology, how do we talk about politics? How do we talk about religion differently? How does that influence that conversation that might make it a little bit more sane – maybe less emotional, less reactive, less divisive?

[24:29] David Zahl: Well, I think high anthropology sort of is very attracted to certainty and low anthropology allows for the fact that again, as I said earlier, there’s always something you might not know. If you want to think about it religiously, you could say, there’s a God and I’m not he. And one of the great issues we have when it comes to politics and religion is that we just are in a war of competing certainties in which there’s no listening. There’s no humility. I mean, humility is the way forward in all of these. So the extent to which we’re convinced that we are 100% right, and we have nothing to learn from the other person will be the way, will be the extent, to which we cannot talk to them or we vilify them. We are certain how they will respond. For example, like anytime you’re in a relationship with your spouse, like if I start to fill in the blanks and I don’t even mention something, well then our communication is broken down because I’m so certain. And that’s just self-righteousness. So I think low anthropology allows for the fact that I don’t know. And there’s going to be some ways – and I mean for me as a religious person of faith, Christian faith – my faith doesn’t mean much outside of my low anthropology like I need God. That’s what the whole thing therefore is. That’s the truth that I’m holding onto it, the base. But when it comes to politics, it is a guard against boiling someone down to just one opinion they have or one point of view.

[25:55] David Zahl: It allows for the fact that we may not be united in the virtues we uphold or the values we uphold, but we will be united in the inconsistency with which we hold those values. I always find this is why the internet unfortunately has not served us very well. It’s because we tend to make cardboard cutouts of other people. And the second I can find out, “Oh, this person, what do they struggle with? This person just lost their father. Okay. I may not agree with what they have to say about Proposition 305, but I lost my father too.” And I know that that’s not an uncertain species I’m dealing with. And that sometimes is the difference between taking up a weapon and not. It’s just that little bit. And so that’s where I’m at with all this stuff. I think in low anthropology, we’re just, however we can get to humility, it will benefit our interactions about those two topics tremendously.

[26:52] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Reminds me of the quote, but for the grace of God, there go I. And there’s an interview with General Stanley McChrystal and I think it was on the Tim Ferriss podcast, but where Stanley McChrystal talked about how the enemy who were trying to kill him and his men and his women – the enemy, he said, “If I grew up in that environment, if I grew up and had their upbringing, I would be sitting on the other side of the table.” And this compassion, this empathy, this understanding is ability to put yourself in the other person’s shoes. is low anthropology and which is, I think, fed into his ability to lead so well.

[27:30] David Zahl: Yeah. You don’t abandon ideas of right and wrong or good and evil, but it does give you a little pause before you dehumanize the other person.

[27:39] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: So I always like to leave my listeners with something actionable, some kind of action item, right? For the person who feels that failure is a sign of inadequacy, setbacks mean that they are just no good, and they beat themselves up for that. What can you give our listeners who maybe they feel overwhelmed by societal pressures to achieve a certain standard? How can we find contentment and fulfillment? What kind of actionable things can we do other than reading your book and being aware of this? Are there any practices or tactical things that we can do to keep this top of mind and go through our lives and our days with a grasp on low anthropology?

[28:20] David Zahl: Well, whatever you can do to get close to death a little bit – and I mean a little bit – some sense of history, ritual, or wonder, those are the things that make you small. The Aurora Borealis. I was flying back from [a] vacation and I flew over Arlington Cemetery. And that gives you a sense of wonder, of awe, but also of smallness. You see how small each one of those crosses look. And I think that for different people, that will be different. I don’t think it’s like laughing in the face of death. I think it’s getting in touch with something that’s larger than yourself. I mean, that’s what I find I do. That happens for me at church. It also happens to me through F3 in just sort of the … I’m hearing from other guys and we’re together and, it’s also beautiful and it’s the morning and you’ve just done something hard and all these things. But I think whatever you can do to get in touch with that sense of smallness. And again, the big three are wonder, death, and some kind of cause, like a community, that will tell you everything you need to know about low anthropology. The fruit will be enormous and lifesaving and it won’t be marketable, but it’ll make a huge difference.

[29:25] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Where can people find you, follow you, buy your book, et cetera, David?

[29:32] David Zahl: Sure! Search David Zahl on Barnes and Noble or Amazon and you’ll find Low Anthropology. I also wrote a book called Seculosity about sort of replacement religions and the anxiety that produces. But I run a website called Mockingbird, or more accurately an organization called Mockingbird, mbird.com. We publish a magazine. We host conferences. And I have a podcast too called The Mockingcast, where we talk about sort of daily life and its connection to cut, sort of, grace and pressure and the same things we’ve been talking about today.

[30:01] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Excellent, David. Thank you so much for making time to come on the show.

[30:05] David Zahl: Thank you so much Jim. I love what you’re doing.

[30:07] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Likewise.

[30:10] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Thanks for listening. If you want to apply these principles into your life, let’s talk. You can see the limited spaces that are open on my calendar at jimharshawjr.com/apply, where you can sign up for a free one-time coaching call directly with me. And don’t forget to grab your action plan. Just go to jimharshawjr.com/action. And lastly, iTunes tends to suggest podcasts with more ratings and reviews more often. You would totally make my day if you give me a rating and review. Those go a long way in helping me grow the podcast audience. Just open up your podcast app if you have an iPhone. Do a search for Success through Failure. Select it and then scroll the whole way to the bottom, where you can leave the podcast a rating and a review. Now, I hope this isn’t just another podcast episode for you. I hope you take action on what you learned here today. Good luck, and thanks for listening.

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