[00:00] Richard Fenton: Even when it is about you, it’s not about you. It’s always about the other person. And the minute you can start thinking, this isn’t me, that’s getting rejected. It’s the product, the service, the timing, or something else, then you can start to divorce yourself from that angst that you get when you hear No.

[00:19] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Welcome to another episode of Success Through Failure, the show for successful people and for those who want to become successful, the only show that reveals the true nature of success. This is your host, Jim Harshaw, Jr. and today I bring you Andrea Waltz and Richard Fenton. Now, if those names sound familiar, that means you are a longtime listener or your maybe more recent listener who’s gone way back into the archives.

[00:45] So I interviewed Andrea and Richard. Way back in episode 77 0 in October, 2016. That’s like forever ago in podcast years. That’s like 150 years in podcast years. And they were awesome then. And I have taken so many lessons from that interview, from reading their book then, and even the conversations that we had a couple of times following that and just sort of how they built their business and they’ve been really just great friends.

[01:14] You know, we don’t stay in touch all that much like you do with a, a good. Friend or an old friend from high school. But man, these are just good people who have been mentors for me in some senses and, uh, staying in touch over the years and I’m so glad to have them on the show again. So glad they wrote another book.

[01:31] They are the co-founders of Courage Crafters Inc. And the co-authors of this bestselling book. Their original book was, Go for no. And they speak to sales and entrepreneurial audiences on how to overcome their fear of rejection and achieve extraordinary sales success by hearing no more often. Now, if you’re saying, ah, this one episode’s not for me.

[01:52] I’m not in sales. This episode is for you. We are all selling something. This is not just me trying to say, oh, I hope this non salesperson listens to this episode. No, this is about any of us, me included, who need to. Be able to absorb rejection and understand that no, doesn’t mean never. No, doesn’t mean there’s something wrong with you or wrong with your service, or wrong with your product or your presentation or anything like that.

[02:22] No, just means no for now. And it’s education. It is information, it’s data for you to use to. Better. So their book, originally, the book Go for No reached number one on Amazon’s bestselling list in 2010 and get this, it’s remained in the top 50 sales books for the last 13 years. Top 50 sales books. There’s a billion sales books for 13 years.

[02:49] So their new book is called, When they say no, and it’s about handling the nos and the rejection and anything that you do, they have specific tactics and strategies and words you can use and mindsets that you can use in order to take those nos and use those to get to the yeses and, and use those nos to get to the success that you wanna create.

[03:12] All right, here we go. My second interview with Andrea Wal. And Richard Fenton. So I’m gonna start with this and we’re gonna come in hot. How in Goodness name is getting told? No. A model for success.

[03:27] Andrea Waltz: Yeah. It sounds very counterintuitive because it is, and uh, getting to know is the way to Yes, because they really are a package deal.

[03:37] You can’t have one without the other. We always say, if you want more yeses in your life, you need to be hearing it no more often. It’s completely counterintuitive to. We’re raised how we’re taught in school society. Everybody teaches us go for yes, we want to hear yes more often, but the reality is that although yes is what we want, it’s the destination.

[03:59] What we have discovered is that no is how you get there. Because when you avoid, no, that’s when you avoid opportunities. And opportunities are where the yeses hang out. Oftentimes, we don’t realize they’re yeses. They’re not. Obvious, they’re not super visible and so when you go for no, and you’re willing to hear no more often, that’s when you get more, yes.

[04:19] Richard Fenton: Yeah. And a few years ago, as you recalled, um, the movie, the Secret was very, very popular, the Law of Attraction. And you know, then it, it was a book and we ran into a lot of pushback from people who were like, no, no, the law of attraction is, what do you think about comes about? So if I think about, no, then I’m just gonna get more nos.

[04:38] I don’t wanna get more nos, I want to get more yeses. And it was kind of funny. I mean, you know, we constantly found ourselves laughing at. because if you think that getting more nos will not get you more yeses, then you don’t understand success and failure that as Andrea said, this is a package deal. You can’t have one without the other.

[04:58] You can’t say, oh, I’m going to go for yes, and I’m going to avoid no, because the avoidance of no means that you don’t make calls. You don’t take chances, you don’t ask for things, and if you don’t make calls and ask for things, well then you’re not gonna hear. Yes. So it truly is a package.

[05:14] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: So it’s nice to sit here on a podcast episode and talk about how this is a great concept.

[05:21] But for the listener, when they stop this podcast episode and go back to their real life and start looking for nos, those feel like. Darts. They, they hurt. They sting their blows to our ego. Like it’s nice to talk about it here, but how do we actually put that into practice? How do we protect our ego from all the damage that a no feels like it does to us?

[05:46] Andrea Waltz: So, well, there’s a couple things. One is I wish I could change biology cuz if I could figure that out, if we could figure out how to change biology and somehow rewire our D n A to not have it be physically painful, that would be great. And we would become billionaires, which would be awesome.

[06:04] Unfortunately, there’s no way to change biology and so there’s always going to be that sting, but I Jim, if you get prepared for it and you’re aware of the fact that we are biologically wired to not get rejected, and so when you go, you start, you know, attempting to hear more nos in order to get yeses.

[06:22] Just having that awareness, I think is part of it that you are, you’re not doing anything wrong. This is, you are not a abnormal, this is what everybody goes through. , and I think that awareness is empowering. But then the second thing is to answer the question that your brain automatically asks. And this is the first question your brain asks.

[06:42] It’s the knee jerk question. As soon as you get that rejection, your brain is asking, what does this mean? And your brain is interpreting it very negatively. Your brain is. Is asking the question, and it’s also answering it very quickly. And the answer to what does this mean is it means you’re probably going to die.

[06:57] Your brain doesn’t trust you, your brain thinks pretty much that you are an idiot. It’s, it’s in charge and needs to keep you alive and safe and to help you survive. And so the, the answer to what does this mean is always negative in. Need your split. Second reaction is when we have the power to choose a different thought.

[07:18] And so that is the task that we’re all faced with is can we choose in that moment a more empowering, more positive thought about the rejection? Even if the rejection is something that we cannot change, it’s hard, it’s heartbreaking, it’s demoralizing, but can we think differently about it? And then how do we move forward from.

[07:40] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Is there a mechanism built into your philosophy for improvement, for watching the tape, for learning from the nose and getting better? Yeah,

[07:50] Richard Fenton: there’s really, there are two things. One is people have this tendency to think of as yes as good and no is bad. So whenever they hear a yes, they think they’ve done a great job and they’re on the right track.

[08:04] Whenever they hear a no, they think they’re doing something wrong. And so somehow or other, we have to reprogram our brains to think differently about those two words. So the first mechanism that we use is called Setting no goals. And in other words, we literally teach people that rather than just setting yes goals and you, you know what a yes goal is, right?

[08:24] It’s a goal for the number of times people are gonna say yes to you, how many sales you’re gonna close, how much revenue you’re gonna generate. Those are all the results of getting a yes. Well, a no goal would be a goal for the number of times that you want to hear people say no to you. . And when you set a goal for the number of nos you want to hear, so let’s say for example, you were gonna try to get 10 nos this week.

[08:45] And I don’t mean 10 phone calls where someone doesn’t call you back, or 10 emails that don’t get returned. I’m talking about 10 presentations where the prospect tells you, no, I’m not interested, I’m not taking it right. 10 nos. So if you set a goal for 10 nos every time you hear the word. Your brain starts thinking the opposite.

[09:05] It thinks, oh great, we’re getting somewhere. Oh, we’re achieving our goals. We set a goal for 10, and we just got three. Let’s go for four. So that’s the first part is to start to reprogram yourself, to think of no as a positive that you think of no as an achievement or a movement towards achievement, and also to minimize what you think when you hear the word.

[09:26] You know when Andrea says that, when we hear the word no, you know, we, we think we’ve done something wrong. When we hear the word yes, a lot of times we think we’re just great. They said, yes, I’m the greatest salesperson in the world. Well, the reality is right product, right person, right time, right price.

[09:42] You can have the worst sales presentation in the world and they’ll still say yes. And you can have the best presentation in the world with the wrong product at the wrong time, with the wrong prospect. And they’re still gonna say no. So we think we are the ones that are always the, the ones in charge of the s and f.

[09:59] It’s really not. It’s about the prospect. And so the second part of our changing things is to, and you’ve heard this before, it’s, you know, don’t take no personally. A lot of times people think that when they hear the word no, that the prospect is rejecting them. That it is a rejection of them as an individual, that it speaks about us.

[10:19] And the reality is it’s not about you all the time. It is again, the right size, the right shape, the right price, the right timing. There’s so many things that go into a no that it really is not rejecting you personally. And in the 10% of the time where maybe somebody doesn’t like. , they literally are rejecting you because it’s you.

[10:41] They don’t like you. The reality is the next person you call on may love everything about you that the last person rejected you over. So even when it is about you, it’s not about you. It’s always about the other person. And the minute you can start thinking, this isn’t me, that’s getting reject. It’s the product, the service, the timing, or something else.

[11:02] Then you can start to divorce yourself from that angst that you get when you hear no

[11:07] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: quick interruption. Hey, if you like what you’re hearing, be sure to get the notes, quotes, and links in the action plan from this episode. Just go to JimHarshawJr.com/action. That’s JimHarshawJr.com/action to get your free copy of the action plan.

[11:22] Now back to the show. You know, I’ve recognized many a time, probably since I’ve spoken with you guys last, this kind of stuff really sticks with me. But I know that whenever somebody tries to sell something to me and, and I say no, I do notice that, you know, three months, six months, a year, a couple years later, I think to myself, In certain scenarios or for certain products or whatever it might be, or certain services.

[11:49] I think to myself, boy, if that person called me right now, I would say Yes, . It was just the wrong time. It’s not that I didn’t like them. It’s not that I didn’t think it was a great product, whatever it was, it was just the wrong time for me and. If you take that no, and you think it’s no, not ever or no, that, you know the problem is me or the product or the service, then you’re missing out on, on revenue.

[12:11] And for the audience. Listen, I, I know not everybody here works in that’s listening is works in sales, but hey, we’re all selling something, right? Whether you’re trying to sell something to your kids or to your boss or, or, or you do work in sales at some level, this all, all makes sense in any aspect of life.

[12:27] And I love the. Never accept in victory what you would not accept in defeat. And for the listener, what this means is you, you know what it means, but I, I love breaking this down anyway. Like if you perform poorly and, and you win, you don’t wanna continue to perform poorly. It’s about to performance, right?

[12:45] If you perform well, but you lose if you give a great sales pitch, but you lose, or you give a great presentation to, I, I don’t know, the school board for whatever reason you’re trying to pitch the school board or something. And you, you give a great pitch and it fails. Like you’re
[13:00] still trying to gr give a great pitch.

[13:01] That’s the goal is to do as as well as you can. And if you get told no, it’s almost irrelevant. And that’s what we’re trying to get to. Right, Andrea and Richard?

[13:08] Andrea Waltz: Yeah, absolutely. And I think to your point about watching the tape, which I love that phrase, I know that’s probably your sports back. Because for me, not being athletic whatsoever, I’m like, watch the tape.

[13:21] Okay. I think I know what that means. And the purpose of which, of course is to see what moves were made incorrectly and how you can improve and, and all of that. And just like in anything salespeople listening, Back to a phone call that they had with a prospect or watching speakers, you know, watching our performance to see, okay, did that story go off?

[13:45] Well, yes or no? And so of course there’s always to a learning in failure. A learning in hearing. No. And so we wanna be really clear as well that when you pay attention and you see that you are getting no. The same way, the same time, and you’ve kind of feel like you’ve dialed everything else in, then there is something that you, you need to figure out.

[14:12] There’s a gap there and I think for a lot of people, and this doesn’t matter if you’re in sales or not, it’s any kind of asking, this could be fundraising, this could be asking of any kind, sending in a submission, actors going on audition. Learning from those nos. Learning from the rejection is such a powerful way to grow and develop because you get that feedback, but you have to be open-minded enough to receive it.

[14:39] You have to be looking for it, and you have to have enough data. So many people, they get that one or they get those one or two. And then they say, all right, well this, this idea doesn’t work. I’m not gonna pursue this because no one’s interested. And it’s like, wait a minute. You shared the idea with one or two people, no one’s interested.

[14:58] That’s simply not enough data. You’ve gotta try a hundred times. You need to try. Maybe a thousand times. That’s why marketers send out, you know, gofer no is a total marketing concept. Marketers send out thousands of pieces of mail, you know, to homes. That’s why in politics, we have to get large samples of people answering who they voted for because we all know if you ask one or two people, That’s not, you know, the reality.

[15:24] And so having the resilience, having that go for no mindset of I’m gonna keep trying, I’m gonna keep trying, so that you get enough data, that is how you make those lessons pay off because you have enough data to learn from them.

[15:37] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: In the book, you have 41 strategies for handling nos. So let’s go over all 41 right now.

[15:47] I’m just kidding.Okay, why don’t we, why don’t we pick a few? I mean, can you identify a few strategies, maybe some internally and, and some that are external for handling? No, because like I said it, and you guys know this as well as anybody. It’s a blow to the ego. It, you know, we instantly start thinking, okay, what’s wrong?

[16:08] What’s wrong with me? What’s wrong with the product? Or whatever it might be, the presentation. what are some strategies that the listeners can use to really start adopting this into their, uh, day-to-day life and thinking?

[16:20] Andrea Waltz: I’m so excited, Jim, that you asked this question and you said it right. Some are external, they’re things you can say.

[16:25] Some are just things that you should, you should think about. So I’ll tackle one of my favorite, and it’s one of my favorite, cuz I, it’s one that I wrote specifically, so I’ll take that one. What do I do if I’m just getting nothing but nose and I’m so discouraged? You know, I’m, I feel like I’m in such a slump and I just can’t, how do I motivate myself to kind of get out of that?

[16:45] And so the suggestion on that one, we call that change your state. You know, ties back into, um, the work of Tony Robbins, who’s all about changing your state, meaning your physiology. So if you find that you’re getting a lot of nos and things aren’t just going well, well you’ve gotta change your state. Move, get out from your desk, maybe take a couple hours off and break the.

[17:09] Cycle or that pattern. And also, so that’s one big one that’s my favorite because it really does, you’re changing, your physiology goes a long way. And it sounds so simple, but it’s really powerful. So if you can go to the gym, take a walk, you know, get those endorphins flowing, that makes a big difference in your mindset.

[17:27] And then the other piece to that is play music.

[17:29] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: And I’ll jump in real, real quick. I, I do love this because I, I’ll actually do this. And for the listener, this may be a tactic that you can use just to feel like you feel like you’re in a slump, whether you’re selling or, or not selling. You’re in the middle of your day and you just don’t, you’re not feeling it, you’re not feeling the motivation.

[17:44] You need to have some, you don’t need, you want to have some motivation to, you know, when you’re selling you, you know, sometimes you have to mechanically override that if you don’t feel it. But that is one of the ways that you can actually make your body feel like doing the thing that you, you don’t wanna do.

[18:00] For me, my magic number is three burpees. I just get, I just stand up. And do three burpees and I don’t know what three just, it works for me. I certainly, I could do 10, I could do a lot more, but I might be sweating at that point. But just that little bit of changing my physiology and, and, and changing my state or deep breaths or, or splashing your face with water.

[18:20] It’s such a simple thing. But Andrea, that is an excellent tactic.

[18:23] Andrea Waltz: Thank you. Thank you. Well, yeah, and so I’m so glad that you brought that up. And the second small piece to that too is playing music. And my favorite example is so many times, you know, I’m driving on the freeway. Some song will come on from the 1980s and like, aha.

[18:40] Take on me. I’m a, I’m transported back to high school. I’m, you know, I’m right there. Or actually, technically it was elementary school. So let’s I, let’s not jump outta myself here. Or a sad song, I’ll hear some song and I’ll literally, like, tears will start coming into my eyes and I’m, all of a sudden I’m so emotional.

[18:59] And so music
[19:00] is such a great state changer. So we’ve come up with a bunch of fun songs that are energizing, I mean, fan Halen play like some great, you know, eighties rock hair band that will really change.

[19:14] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Yeah, that’s a great one too. We, we all have those songs that just light us up and I’ve never really thought of that.

[19:20] That’s a, that’s a great one to add to my repertoire. Thank.

[19:23] Richard Fenton: Oh me. I’m ready. laid, honest, Richard. Yeah, I would pick, and I have to tell you, there are a lot of favorites, so it’s hard to choose. It’s a, a saying that you’ve heard before. Um, our good friend Bob Berg, says this all the time, which is all things being equal, people will buy from people they know, like, and trust.

[19:43] And recently we worked with a pharmaceutical company and they had, you know, their sales force have to go in and call on these doctor’s. and they go into these places again and again and again and again, and they hear, no, no, no, no. And it’s, it’s competitive. You know, there’s lots of other people doing the same thing.

[20:02] And one of our things is that when they say no, when they say no to you, there’s a good chance that they don’t know, like or trust you yet. And the reason that becomes important is that there’s a feeling that when you make a. And I’m talking specifically to salespeople, but this could be anything. This could be, Hey, I asked her to marry me many, many, many times and she said no a lot cuz she didn’t know, like, and trust me yet.

[20:25] So it’s not just the sales world per se, but you know, when somebody goes into an office and, and makes a call and you know, they say no or the gatekeeper won’t let you in to meet with the decision maker. We think that we didn’t get anywhere that we gotta no. And therefore that no had no value. Well, the no had a lot of value.

[20:46] The fact that they got to meet you, that you got to talk, even if it’s for 30 seconds, they’re getting to know you. If you smile, if you’re friendly, if you ask them how their day is, they begin to like you because you are lik a bull. And if you say, I’ll drop the samples off on Thursday by noon, and you actually come in on Thursday morning, then they start to trust.

[21:07] So they’re getting to know you and like you and trust you. So every no is building value towards the moment when they finally say yes, and when they finally say, you know, yes, as a matter of fact, Bob Smith is available. You know, just wait for 10 minutes. I can get you in to see him. Well, that doesn’t happen on the first call.

[21:26] Ever for any of these people who are in those tough sales businesses, it might take 10 calls or 20 calls, and yet people discount the idea that every one of those knows actually had value. And so, you know, understand that there’s always value in every no.

[21:43] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Excellent. I love getting these tactics because it makes the go for no concept, more doable, more approachable, more achievable.

[21:52] I’d love to get maybe one or two more from you guys, because I think these are so concrete that they, they help you, the listener, adopt this mindset.
[22:00]

[22:00] Andrea Waltz: Okay. I might be stealing this from you. Yeah, go ahead. I, I probably am, but it is one of my favorites and, uh, it’s two of the two strategies. One is don’t be surprised when you get a no.

[22:10] And the other one is be surprised when you get a no, which sounds very counterintuitive, but the don’t be surprised. One is of course, you know you’re going to hear no a lot that that is response that we. Most of the time until people get us, they trust us. Exactly what Richard was just saying. On the other hand, if we’ve done our job and we’ve built that trust, we’ve asked great questions, and this is, this is more on the sales side as well, but you have that opportunity.

[22:36] Andrea Waltz: You finally ask, okay, would you like to go forward? Would you like to do this? And you get that? No. Then you can be surprised and the script, if you will. We don’t, we don’t. A tremendous amount of scripting, but one of my favorite lines that we do recommend is, wow, I’m surprised based on everything I know about you, based on everything we’ve discussed, based on everything, I would’ve thought that you, you know, would wanna do this.

[22:59] I mean, you could even do this with your spouse if you ask, you know, Hey, do you want Italian food? And cuz you’re dying for lasagna, and then they tell you no. You could say, wow, I’m. You love Italian food, why ? What made you say no? So you can use the surprise element for any rejection and it’s really a way to be curious without being confrontational, to be curious, without being attacking.

[23:23] And that’s, that’s the goal. Cause we wanna get some information. Yeah.

[23:26] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: When you’re curious, you learn, you get information and that informs your, your next attempt.

[23:31] Richard Fenton: Exactly. I’m gonna go with when they say no, don’t apologize for the. Explain it, and I’m talking specifically in sales now. Wow. You’re tackling tough ones.

[23:42] I am. This is, this is a, geez, this is a tough one, but it fits with it. Don’t be surprised. Okay. You know, it’s amazing how many salespeople we work with when they go like, yeah, you know, people throw a price objection at me and I’m just not sure how to handle it. How long have you been selling? Have been two years.

[23:57] How many times have you heard the price objection? Oh, probably five times a day. And you still don’t have a response. Okay. You’re still being surprised by it. Well, when we say that, when you hear the, you know, pricing, you’ve gotta ask yourself, am I going to turn around and immediately lower the price? I’m gonna handle this price objection by going, okay, well what if we give you 10%?

[24:20] What if we, what if we throw in, you know, six months of service along with that, which is just, you know, just taking the easy way out is instead say, no, no, defend the price. Explain why you charge what you charge. And probably my favorite example was ever was, um, and man, we read this in Zig Ziglar’s, secrets of Closing the Sale 25 years ago.

[24:41] But he said that when he would get a price objection, he would say, I wanna explain to you why we charge what we charge. The founder of our company decided when we launched the company 50 years ago, that it was easier to explain the price one time than it was to apologize for the quality forever. Let me explain to you why we charge what we charge, and then build the value.

[25:08] Explain the reason that the product costs as much as it does, and so that’s why probably one of my favorites is that, you know, you, you should never immediately start to lower a price. You should always defend the price, cuz if the price wasn’t defendable, then why did you try to charge it in the first place?

[25:25] You’ve gotta be more realistic about some of these things, and as you said, strategic, you have to have strategies for all of these things when you go.

[25:32] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: So let’s turn the page and talk about when you get a yes. You guys say that you shouldn’t necessarily just stop there and be happy. Why not? What do you.

[25:43] Andrea Waltz: That’s right. Well, from a sales standpoint, if you’re trying to serve at the highest level, there’s always an opportunity to build more value. But I will tell you this, this is kind of funny. We seem to have bad luck with our garage door. We’ve owned our house for just over a year and it was always breaking like every three or four months.

[25:59] And I finally got tired of Richard and I up on a ladder with very little light trying to fix our own grudge door opener. So I said we were calling someone, so we, the guy came out. He did the whole thing. He did the service. And when he was leaving Jim, he didn’t ask for anything else. Uh, now I, I didn’t necessarily want to be upsold a garage door service plan, but I would’ve taken a look at it had he mentioned it, but also in that instance, this was the perfect time for him to say.

[26:31] You’re friends with any of your neighbors? Anybody ever look for a garage repair? Could you refer us to them? Here’s my card. Here are a couple cards. Hey, do you ever go on Google and do reviews? We would really appreciate a review for our service. So there’s always opportunities, even if it’s not to sell more, to ask for those things that can make your business a little better, a little more effective.

[26:56] And I think sometimes it’s human nature to get that yes that we want in any scenario. And then, Fear that if we don’t wanna look pushy, we don’t wanna look aggressive, but if the person’s done a good job or if you’ve built that relationship, you know, take that chance and ask most people, 99% are not gonna be offended.

[27:17] And they’ll say, sure, I’ll go on to Google and do a review for you, or Sure, I’ll help you out with this thing. And. You’ve forged that relationship. You’ve gone for no again, and ended up with another. Yes, it does take courage. I will say that that is definitely one of our 41 strategies. Takes courage to ask in those moments, especially when you’ve gotten the first.

[27:38] Yes, and I’ll be honest,

[27:40] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: whenever a service provider provides something for me, whether it’s through my business or my my home. I almost welcome that they’ve done a good job and I trust them. I absolutely welcome it. There’s nothing awkward, like when I put myself on that side, because I don’t, I’ll be honest, I don’t do a good job of what you just said.

[27:59] You know, asking after a yes, asking for, Hey, who else do you know? Or There’s this other opportunity, that kind of thing. I don’t do a good job of that. But when I put myself on the side of the recipient of the service provider or receiving the product, I almost expect it. You know, I actually had, you know, a financial advisor I used to work with that I was like, I actually asked them, I’m like, why?

[28:18] Why don’t you ask me for referrals? Because I have some people in mind and you should ask me for referrals because I like you. You do a good job. I don’t know why, you know, . So there’s a sense of it’s awkward or it’s, you are fearful of doing it, but when you know for the listener really put yourself like.

[28:34] Pay attention, tune in. When you’re in those situations where you are the person who could get asked for, Hey, who do you know? Or, Hey, there’s this next level or this next product, put yourself in in, you know, kind of pay attention and you’ll realize that it’s not some awkward ask. So I’d love to hear some stories.

[28:51] Do you have any examples of people who have adopted your mindset, adopted your philosophy of setting the no goals and, and have found success with it?

[29:03] Andrea Waltz: Yeah. We have so many examples. One of, one of the best things about the process is not only do people get financial results and benefit from going for no, but a lot of times we hear from people that they’ve.

[29:16] Built their confidence. So they’ve just had a experience where they, they were hesitant to ask. They didn’t wanna upset anybody, they didn’t wanna look pushy, and they just went for it. And then they got a yes. And this happens to us Jim all the time. But I will tell you, I remember a good friend of ours, Mike, who called us one Friday afternoon, and he had set a no goal, like Richard talked about earlier of getting 10 nos, he had gotten nine, he wanted the 10th.

[29:41] No. He was just looking forward. He figured it would be easy. Friday afternoon, he decided to call on somebody that had been telling him no for a long time. So he thought, this is the easiest way to get my 10th. No, and I’ll celebrate and reward myself for my activity and my courage. So he ended up calling this.

[29:58] prospect and the guy said, Mike, thank you so much for calling. I’m glad you followed up because I actually, I’m ready to get started. So, uh, yeah, sign me up and send me the contract and the whole thing. And he said, Andrew, I don’t even know how to feel about this. You know, , it’s like, I should be excited to get the yes, but I missed my no goal.

[30:17] And so those things happen and, and it’s in that Jack Canfield says, successfully survived risk that people, we see them build that confidence and so they build that confidence and that courage to say, all right, I’m gonna, I’m going to ask more. I’m going to, to try more, put myself on the line a little bit more.

[30:36] Richard Fenton: Yeah, my example is very similar to Andrea’s, but it was a, uh, young lady who had a home-based business. She was, you know, really having trouble trying to ask people and share the business with people. And finally, you know, we encouraged her, just take a chance. Pick the person who you absolutely positively know isn’t going to say yes to you.

[30:55] And she said, well, my next door neighbor’s a. , and I know he makes a lot of money and he’d never wanna be involved in a home-based business like mine. And so we’re like, well go ask him. So she musters all of her courage that she can get. You know, she gets all dressed up and gets her makeup on and her best jacket, and she goes next door.

[31:14] And she’s never even talked to this guy. I mean, they’ve waved across the driveway once or twice, but she goes and knocks on the door and you know, she’s like, I just, I just wanted to tell you about the home-based business. I started just in case you might be interested. Well, he ends up joining. Her network marketing team and becomes her largest distributor.

[31:32] Her largest distributor. And for years she had automatically said no for him. She was saying no for him. And I remember once we were talking to Jack Canfield and uh, Jack said, having somebody say no to you is not the worst thing. The worst thing is when you say no to. He goes, when you’re engaged in self-rejection, you don’t even give the other person the option to reject you.

[31:55] Well, now you’re rejecting 10 times worse. And so that’s one of the things, you know, we tell people is let the other person tell you no, don’t say no for them. Never say no for someone else.

[32:05] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Yeah, yeah. If you don’t ask the answer’s always going to be known. Mm-hmm. That’s right. So how do you guys. Take your own medicine, you know, do you adopt this in your own business?

[32:18] I mean, you guys are, are speakers and you’re out there getting on stages. I mean, how do you adopt this mindset and grow your own business by going for no yourselves?

[32:32] Richard Fenton: Well, I’m gonna be brutally honest here with you, Jim, and the answer is, we didn’t write this book because we’re fearless. We are not inherently the greatest salespeople in the world.

[32:42] I am clearly somebody who struggled with rejection and quite frankly, still struggles with rejection. And this kind of fits with us. When they say Yes thing, I will be on a call and we’ll have a client call and they wanna hire us to speak, and they’ll be like, okay, great. You know, so Thursday, July 19th, two o’clock, looking forward to blah, blah, blah.

[33:02] And Andrea will have to walk over and she’ll whisper in my ear. She’ll say, Ask him about books In reality, I’m not really sure that I’m forgetting to take the chance and to ask for, you know, ask for the sale. I think that I’m subconsciously sometimes just trying to avoid the rejection and, you know, and I’m not taking the chance and, and so I have to constantly remind myself, especially when someone has said yes to me, that it’s okay to ask for more.

[33:31] Right? It’s okay to say, Hey, do you wanna do two present? Do you wanna do one for your leadership team as well as for your sales team? And on and on. There’s all these opportunities, and I have to fight this at every turn. Fortunately, I have the voice in in my ear over here saying, don’t forget. But it’s a struggle.

[33:48] Even after 25 years of doing this professionally, I still have to work on it every time.

[33:53] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Yeah, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s something I would say, you know, I deal with too. And when you mention like, it’s like almost unconscious, it’s like this self sabotage or this sort of like self-protection mode that you can easily go even when you get the Yes.

[34:07] You know? So this is, um, this is really helpful. Uh, I love talking to you guys because this is, uh, you know, therapy for myself as well, so I appreciate this. This is like, it’s like getting my own private coaching session with both of you. So for the listener who’s bought in and really wants to take action on this, what do you recommend like in the next say, 24 to 48 hours outside of buying your book?

[34:28] And, and for the listener, I shared with you the name of the book and the intro, and it’s a fantastic book. And again, the book title is When They Say No, the Definitive Guide for Handling Rejection in Sales. So for the listener who wants to adopt this mindset, of course by the book, what else can.

[34:46] Andrea Waltz: So my, our, our advice is to just start by creating a no awareness.

[34:52] Like, do you ever hear the word no? Or are you kind of in that old mindset where we’ve all been programmed to just go for yes, treat your, you, you avoid no at all costs, and start testing yourself. Start, you know, creating that, no awareness and, and figuring out where are you? And then start asking for things.

[35:11] Start with safe nos. . And the more you do that, the more confident you’ll be. And then eventually you can move towards setting a no goal. And then you can use our book to help you when you do start getting all those nos, how to improve your mindset and your reaction and the things that you’re thinking about.

[35:28] But it is a process, and I think it always starts Jim, with just awareness of where are you now?

[35:34] Richard Fenton: Yep. And if you want to come to go for no.com, my shameless plug, take a look around, um, read some stuff, watch a little bit of our keynote, uh, video, and uh, you can check out the other things we have there. But, uh, a lot of things to explore on this topic.

[35:48] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Excellent. Thank you. So go for no.com and you can buy your book there or you can probably buy it on Amazon and everywhere else, I imagine, right? Absolutely. Excellent. Andrea, Richard, thank you so much for coming back on the show. It’s so great to see you guys.

[36:01] Andrea Waltz: Thank you so much for having us. Yeah, you.

[36:06] Jim Harshaw, Jr.: Thanks for listening. If you want to apply these principles into your life, let’s talk. You can see the limited spaces that are open on my calendar at JimHarshawJr.com/apply, where you can sign up for a free one-time coaching call directly with me. And don’t forget to grab your action plan. Just go to JimHarshawJr.com/action.

[36:25] And lastly, iTunes tends to suggest podcasts with more ratings and reviews more. You would totally make my day if you give me a rating and review. Those go a long way in helping me grow the podcast audience. Just open up your podcast app. If you have an iPhone, do a search for success through failure, select it, and then scroll the whole way to the bottom where you can leave the podcast a rating and review.

[36:50] Now, I hope this isn’t just another podcast episode for you. I hope you take action on what you learned here today. Good luck and thanks for listening.

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